I can’t square conservatism with freedom.

I can’t square conservatism with freedom.

Conservatism: political doctrine that emphasizes the value of traditional institutions and practices. - Britannica.com

Conservatism is largely about maintaining the status quo. Not in all things at all times, but conservatism likes the stability of popular (within conservative circles anyway) norms that are passed on from generation to generation.

The problem.

Conservatism values freedom yet that freedom is limited to what is socially acceptable to mainstream conservatives. Freedoms that lay outside conservative theological and/or political dogma are often seen as a direct assault on good conservative values and can be vigorously opposed.

Freedom limited to conservative values tend be seen as authoritarian to those with different values, especially conflicting ones. The irony here is that conservatives feel that the left are the ones trying to force their will on all when in reality both use Machiavellian tactics to gain an unfair advantage over the other.

Freedom limited to what my subculture approves of is authoritarianism, not freedom and certainly not democratic. From my POV as an independent with no loyalty to the Republicans or Democrats both are competing authoritarian systems that want to force their will on all and seemingly have lost interest is compromise and cooperation which are required for a healthy functioning representative republic.

 

And what "freedom" would you like have? Is it the right to burn and loot? Is it the "right" to destroy works of art and other symbols of civilization in the name "climate change radicalism?" Is it the right to take or destroy someone else's property that they have worked to earn?

I agree with the right to "choice" within reason, but do you think you have the right to kill the child right up to the time of birth?

Are you a big open borders advocate? Do you think that illegals have the right to come here and get more benefits than those offered to United States citizens?

You talk about "authoritarian." Left wing governments are authoritarian. They take people's rights and property, and what's often left is in the hands of government leadership and those who support them.

 

Are there states that allow healthy viable babies to be killed at birth?

 

Look at the states that make gun ownership and carry as difficult as possible and tell me who it is that runs those States and makes those policies.

Look at college campuses where students damn near riot and in some cases maybe they do.... Because a speaker is going to appear that they disagree with.

Those aren't conservative students doing the rioting

 

Yes. The former Governor of Virginia floated idea until he was roundly condemned for it. The was an abortion doctor in Philadelphia who was killing live babies until he was arrested and convicted.

There are those who want to fun of sex but not the responsibility. Given the birth control devices that are available, they have no excuses.

 

I do square conservatism with freedom, because it is the only path to it. It's true conservatives change slowly- but that's because it's important for change to be constructive and beneficial, rather than a wild shot at anything that sounds good. And freedom is your right to do what you please with your own life, but it is never being able to impose your beliefs on others so you will feel better or gain something.
Freedom s choosing your own path- not dragging society down the path you choose.

All forms of government intrude on our freedoms to some extent. and certainly not always righteously, because power corrupts- but it seems to corrupt some more than others. What I see is that if you are a true conservative, you are self-regulated by your own values and the responsibility for your own conduct. If you are a liberal, you are regulated by what you can get away with. That's a collective view, there are individuals on both sides that vary from that.

 

That the doctor was arrested and convicted means it’s NOT legal to kill healthy viable babies at birth. Got it. Thanks.

 

If Democrats have their way it would be.

 

Let’s be honest here, some on both sides destroy property. Both sides do all manner of immoral things. Those that can’t see this are blinded by partisan loyalties. I reject arguments of whataboutisms and subjectivity perceived lesser evils and say if a thing is wrong for one then it is wrong for all.

I see conservatives that espouse freedom engaging in cancel culture, book bans, limiting freedom of speech on conservative social media platforms. It is easy for partisans to point out what the other side does, but almost impossible for them to see how their own side does that which they accuse the other of. This applies to all tribal groups.

 

No it wouldn’t. Silly to even suggest such.

 

What you are ignoring or otherwise missing are America's traditional institutions and practices. The regressive left would put us all in chains of "you must ..." rather than the freedom of "you must not <insert violent act here>". When this country was formed there was no such thing as an illegal material item. Nowadays you got everybody in everybody's business. I can't even pay the phone bill without paying a tax that pays somebody else's phone bill.

The traditional institutions and practices the conservatives are trying to conserve are the Declaration of Independence and Our Constitution, in that order of importance. We also hold the Ten Comandments in high esteem, but we only enforce two of them ourselves- Don't steal, and don't murder.

 

This seems to support the op point, "Conservatism values freedom yet that freedom is limited to what is socially acceptable to mainstream conservatives. Freedoms that lay outside conservative theological and/or political dogma are often seen as a direct assault on good conservative values and can be vigorously opposed.

Freedom limited to conservative values tend be seen as authoritarian to those with different values, especially conflicting ones. The irony here is that conservatives feel that the left are the ones trying to force their will on all when in reality both use Machiavellian tactics to gain an unfair advantage over the other."

 

How long can progressives hold the reigns of power before progressivism becomes what is being conserved, ie- 'conservative'?

I mean, I dont think 'conservative' or 'liberal' for that matter mean anything at all like they what used to.

 

Wanted to comment on the pro life vs pro choice aspect of your argument. The term pro life and pro choice reveal the impossibility of reaching a middle ground. Because of this I argue that those that are defenders of democracy should accept that a majority of Americans support abortion in one form or another thus it should be allowed if we are to live up to democratic ideals. As a supporter of democracy myself I dislike abortion yet accept the will of the people. Yet the Republican Party lied in order to pack the Supreme Court with Federalist Society approved judges some of which lied to the American public during confirmation hearings about whether or not to uphold abortion precedents.

You can turn a blind eye if you like but both sides do all they can to force their policies on us all by any means necessary… morals and ethics be damned. In politics it is a common practice to use evil (lies and such) to achieve a perceived good. Machiavelli was right about human nature in that the means are justified by the ends.

 

I don't think you know what conservative values are.

I think you got conservative confused with Republican.

 

Perhaps instead of looking for the differences try looking for the negative similarities. Both sides try to limit the policies of the other side and promote their own over the other. As for riots, we all saw conservatives riot because they disagreed with the outcome of an election. If a thing is wrong for one then it is wrong for all.

Human nature is systemic my friend. In terms of immoral, unethical and corruption these negatives exists in abundance on both sides. To side with a subjectivity arrived at lesser evil is still to side with evil. Conservatives and liberals would do well to take a hard look at the evil within before pointing out the evil of the opposition. And when I say look for the evil within I do not mean purge the party of moderates that flunk a political ideology purity test.

 

I don’t think the tens of millions of conservatives in America agree upon what they are.

 

That's because many of those so called conservatives have no clue as to what they are supposed to be trying to conserve. - The DOI and the Constitution.

 

I realized the problems with these terms when I saw the Triple Alliance between Russia, Prussia, and Austria, which was gradually joined by nearly all the European Princes, described as a Conservative union. And in the strict sense it was, it was protecting the Monarchies from Liberal Democracy. Our foundational document, the Declaration of Independence is a Declaration that we were throwing off the bonds of monarch to be a Liberal Democracy, and this led to a wide movement of other peoples striving for self autonomy. Very quickly we enshrined our national values of Liberal Democracy in our Constitution which forbids Monarchy, or any titles of nobility.

So, in our system Conservative are conserving our Constitutional Liberal Democracy.

There were a few other things in your post that I'd like to comment on:

One thing to remember is that our founding principles are aspirational. The opening sentences of our Constitution Preamble remind that this is a forever 'perfecting' union. We have secured the blessings of liberty, but, there is always more more to do. The task of more perfectly securing our mutual liberties is a task we inherit from our parents and pass to our children. There are a number of glaring shortfalls in our society, right now, that quite frankly I think we avoid focusing on by emphasizing the shortfalls of those who came before us. I'll give you just a few that bother me so much that I have to work to keep my mind off them, because they are so unjust, but, there is no sufficient national movement at the moment to take the next corrective steps that will more perfectly secure our mutual freedoms and liberties:

1. We have slave produced goods on our shelves, not left over from a hundred years ago, but right now, today. We all know it, but, we do not have the national consensus, yet, to completely clear our shelves of this shame. I'm confident that at some point, we will, but right now we are more focused on the shortcomings of our great great great grandfathers, than our own.
2. More men than women are raped, daily in this nation. We have men caged with other men who are bigger and stronger than they are, who may not of even committed a violent crime, and anytime the bigger stronger man wants a sexual release, he makes the smaller guy provide it. We all know it, it occurs thousands of times each day, in government facilities where we control every minute of their time and every square inch they occupy. We all know it, but there is no national will to end this horrific and unjust abuse of our fellow human beings, but boy can we rail endlessly about the shortcomings of our grandparents in the 50's and 60's. Not a hell of a lot about our own shortcoming, right now.
3. And a final one, 85% of the Central American females that illegally cross our Southern Border are raped enroute. 85%. Thats every damn one of them except the very old and very young. And a good number of those raped women and girls continue to be sexually trafficked after they settle into the States. We all know it. Solid study after study has confirmed it, yet the rape routes through the cartel badlands of Northern Mexico continue to operate in the name of "compassion."

The next part is that our system is not set around what is socially acceptable, rather it's built around our personal autonomy in the following order:

1. We have perfect freedom so long as the exercise of our freedoms do not violate another's freedom - 9th amendment.
2. States have broader regulatory powers than the Federal Government, but, they may not violate our fundamental rights, and they must have a legitimate reason to regulate that is rooted in a power granted by The People in the founding constitution or charter. The next step to even more greatly secure our liberty would be to also require "and they must regulate by using the least intrusive means possible to achieve that legitimate goal."
3. Federal government only has the specific powers granted in the Constitution.

I point this out because you seem to be saying that conservatives are Majoritarians, and Republicans are not. The Republican Party was formed to end slavery, which was an institution favored by the majorities within the States that it was practiced, nevertheless it horribly violated the fundamental rights of the minorities that were held in its evil grasp.

Your final point on compromise and cooperation strike home. This passing fad of deplatforming rather than building sounder arguments, were it to prove durable, and I'm confident it won't, turns everything into a test of strength rather than a discussion of principles. It reduces every conflict to "I can shut you up" and the response is "no you can't" and then that can quickly devolve into a physical violent contest to see who can forcibly silence the other. That is not a good path for us, and it's certainly not consistent with our national aspirations.

I think you'll see steady improvement as we see thin majorities in our government, and that it will steadily dawn on folks that if you want to get anything done, you are going to have to reach out, get to know, and persuade someone outside of your normal circle.

I do not think we are a Left/Right nation. I think we are a horseshoe nation and the 70% of us in the middle have far more in common with each other than the 15% of the folks on the end that are in open conflict with each other. The key is, that we in the middle of the horseshoe have let the two oppositional groups at the ends accumulate all the power. And that's why we need to make solid choices when we vote.

 

You make it sound like conservatives are rational as opposed to compulsive which is in denial of human nature which is systemic. All humans possess the aforementioned traits along with an ego that leads us to overestimate the positives of the in group. Those loyal to conservatism or liberalism take on biases that skew their perspective. For example my old man says that the left can be downright nasty and mean, to which I agree. He then said that the right is not that way which reveals the skewed perspective provided by the rose colored glasses of loyalty or preference.

Both sides impose their will on the other. Both sides believe their group is superior. Both sides are throughly corrupted by Machiavellian moral and ethical trade offs. The lesser evil is still evil. Those that can see the rampant corruption of both tend to have no loyalty to either.

 

No a bad question, but in America conservatives are the ones who support the intent, values, and documents of the revolution; the American Revolution. Meanwhile, the left; the "liberals," are the anti-revolutionaries who are in opposition of the original American revolution and are in favor of replacing it with something new.

But your point on authoritarianism is the most confusing. We've just passed through an era in which the liberals were supportive of shutting down schools, businesses, and churches, arresting pastors for conducting services and chasing down beachgoers for being out in public, filling in public skateparks with sand to prevent their use, and generally tried to micro-manage almost every aspect of human behavior.

I know I know, you'll say "but the pandemic!" But that just makes my point clearer. When the pressure to defend civil liberties was most at stake, you guys, you guys on the left, chose authoritarianism, so it's a bit hard for me to take seriously your idea that conservatives are the real authoritarians.

We had a trial run of authoritarianism and the left chose authoritarianism.

 

From my POV both want to put us all in the chains of “you must”, thus the authoritarianism of both. As for violence, both sides have a history of political violence. The Constitution is interpreted by both in convenient ways, each claiming that their subjective interpretation is the correct interpretation. The Ten Commandments are broken by conservatives on a daily basis.

Where you see differences I see similarities.

 

It's not a matter of being perfect. The difference between such people is their objectives, and the degree to which they believe in pursuing them honorably.
You think those who lack all moral limits are the same as those who lack a few.

 

No, the constitution is not subjective. That is why conservative place the Declaration of Independence ahead of the Constitution in importance. The constitution contains our laws. The Declaration of Independence desribed the reasoning behind these constitutional laws.

You can throw Our Constitution away and pxxx on it and it wouldn't matter a whip to me so long as we Amercans all held the same values and principles expressed in our Declaration of Independence.

But the leftists don't want to toss the constitution. They just want to twist definitions of words within it and if that don't work they start inventing "rights".

 

Our founding documents are interpreted by both sides in convenient ways, each claiming that their subjective interpretation is the correct interpretation. Any side bold enough to claim that their interpretation is not an interpretation but a literal unbiased reading of the documents are fooling themselves.