Is Atheism a logical belief?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by The Last American, Oct 29, 2021.

  1. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Great Philosophy and Religious Studies
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    BLUF: Yes (100%), it is hard to find a discussion in Philosophy these days, that is not overrun by faith-based concepts from one primary source document.

    (COMMENT)

    Some of the more notable philosophers who cut their teeth on the subject of Free Will, Determinism, and Moral Responsibility were Plato (427 BC - 347 BC), Hypatia of Alexandria (360-415 AD), Socrates (470 BC - 399 BC), Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679), Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716), David Hume (1711-1776), Georg Hegel (1770-1831).
    We might be able to include (someday) such topics as: neotic science, incompatibilist theories, illusionism, neuroscience, psychology and rationalization, human behaviors-freedoms, and divine foreknowledge (and expanding to Omnipresent, Omnibenevolence, Omniscient, Omnipotent).

    Just me rambling,
    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
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  2. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I have no clue what you mean.
     
  3. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    What did Hegel say about free will?
     
  4. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Remember Luke 17:6 (CEB) = "The Lord replied, “If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you."

    So, the Jesus character is giving his apostles a pep talk and blurts out that little gem. These are the people who have supposedly seen the Jesus character perform miracles with their own eyes, yet not one of them has enough faith to do what he said they could easily do. And guess what, not one person out of the billions who have claimed to believe in Jesus, has ever passed his simple test. Therefore, if you have faith walk outside and command a tree, or a bush, to uproot itself and to jump into the nearest body of water. If it does as you command you will have been the only person in history to have ever had faith in Jesus. Are you up to it? If so, do it.

    Did you see any of the StarWars movies? Lots of those characters could do things like that without any effort at all.
     
  5. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Georg Hegel and the Question of Free Will
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    FAV: "When it is said that freedom as a general thing consists in doing what one likes, such an idea must be taken to imply an utter lack of developed thought, containing as yet not even the suspicion of what is meant by the absolutely free will, right, the ethical system, etc." pp101 ... "Hence when the free will is spoken of without the qualification of absolute freedom, only the capacity of freedom is meant, or the natural and finite will, and, notwithstanding all words and opinions to the contrary, not the free will." pp104
    SOURCE: READING HEGEL • the introductions • G. W. F. Hegel; editor Aakash Singh, Rimina Mohapatra • © re.press Melbourne 2008
    (COMMENT)
    .
    First, I can only take Georg Hegel in small chunks. He is a very hard read. But even a couple of insights from Hegel goes a long way.

    When Hegel explains "Free Will" he speaks in terms of the "willing a definite object," and the "self-contained idea." And he speaks of the existence and the manifestations relative to the definite and the infinite. And of course, the scientist in me questions any solution that contains an infinity. That becomes especially difficult (speaking for me) when setting a range or establishing a container of ideas that have within them infinite components. BUT! Having said that, I think in the twenty or so pages on the introduction of Free Will, I gather it comes down to: Just because you can do it, does not mean you should do it. Exercise moral and ethical restraint.

    Just My Two Cents worth on GWF Hegel,
    .
    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
  6. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    You don't offend me. Why would I cast you into the sea? God has been merciful to me. I am inclined to no less. He has filled my heart with peace to the ends with his spirit, swept the table of my soul to the edges, filled my mind with light and opened my eyes to heaven, from where his virtue poured out and I saw it gathered to his servants. And the gates of hell have spat me out like Jonah from my prison. He has scribed understanding to my soul in dreams, verified by the words of prophets in my awake readings, and gathered as it were armor to my sides. From here and there he has fashioned me and clothed me like a cinched Bride or pampered child of royalty, for a purpose more than to sport with ruffians. I am taken from violence and my heart is won. It is one thing to not understand Gods counsel. But to mock it is to suspend a sincere exploration and tap into the depths of eternal animus instead. So my advice would be to suspend judgment and wait upon the truth. There is much else to address in our daily lives than to forge nakedly into the unknown, enjoined with legions at war with God. Like dirt to poison, ignorance is better than hate.
     
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  7. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    Sorry, formatting is confusing. Are you citing Hegel somewhere?
     
  8. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Georg Hegel and the Question of Free Will
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    The Hegel quote, citation, and source are right up front after FAV (as in favorite) and set off by quotation marks and page numbers at the end.

    FAV: "When it is said that freedom as a general thing consists in doing what one likes, such an idea must be taken to imply an utter lack of developed thought, containing as yet not even the suspicion of what is meant by the absolutely free will, right, the ethical system, etc." pp101 ... "Hence when the free will is spoken of without the qualification of absolute freedom, only the capacity of freedom is meant, or the natural and finite will, and, notwithstanding all words and opinions to the contrary, not the free will." pp104
    SOURCE: READING HEGEL • the introductions • G. W. F. Hegel; editor Aakash Singh, Rimina Mohapatra • © re.press Melbourne 2008

    The actual book can be found at: READING HEGEL • the introductions

    My personal commentary (take on Hegel) comes after (COMMENT).

    I will try to make my commentary easier to read in the future.

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
  9. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    Ok, I will take some time deciphering this. Thought you were quoting someone named "FAV."
     
  10. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    Hegel is saying that what is called the will can be caprice and just willing anything arbitrarily. He is also refuting the idea that we have no free will and are just determined entities.
     
  11. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Georg Hegel and the Question of Free Will
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    BLUF: GWF Hegel was not the kind that teaches the answer. Hegel would prefer students to work through the issue and then critique it later.

    (COMMENT)

    Of course, you are absolutely correct. But is that all that was there?

    (TRUNCATED COMMENT)

    In the opener of Chapter 3 • The Philosophy of Right • in the Book (READING HEGEL • the introductions), prompts us, in the heading, an interesting paradox:

    ‘Hence man is by nature good. But natural characteristics, since they are opposed to freedom and the
    conception of the spirit, and are, hence, negative, must be eradicated. Thus man is by nature evil’.

    I think GWF Hegel is telling us that the pressures of the Real-World would subject us to harsh consequences if we, under the guise of Free Will, take an action outside the social norm or the duty of our station. And thus, there are limitations to how much freedom we can actually exercise. Do we have the “Free Will” to murder someone? (RHETORICAL) YES! But in doing so, will we be dealt with accordingly by society? (RHETORICAL) YES! So, in the shadow of realism, Hegel ask gives us pause to think and asks the questions:

    ◈ Man has the Free Will to Murder.

    ◈ Man is by nature Good.

    ◈ Man that Commits Murder is Evil.

    ◈ Committing Murder is a choice (Free Will) that has Dire Consequences.

    ◈ Do we actually have Free Will?

    ◈ Is man by nature Evil?​

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R

    Note: BLUF means "Bottom Line Up Front"
    If this is not the type of philosophy you are looking for, just drop me a line and I'll abandon the quasi-proposal.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2021
  12. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    Your formatting makes it nearly impossible to read.
     
  13. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    As it says in Sirach 5:15 (CEB) = "Don’t be ignorant in matters large or small."
     
  14. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    ‘Hence man is by nature good. But natural characteristics, since they are opposed to freedom and the
    conception of the spirit, and are, hence, negative, must be eradicated. Thus man is by nature evil’.

    I think GWF Hegel is telling us that the pressures of the Real-World would subject us to harsh consequences if we, under the guise of Free Will, take an action outside the social norm or the duty of our station. And thus, there are limitations to how much freedom we can actually exercise. Do we have the “Free Will” to murder someone? (RHETORICAL) YES! But in doing so, will we be dealt with accordingly by society? (RHETORICAL) YES! So, in the shadow of realism, Hegel ask gives us pause to think and asks the questions
     
  15. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    ‘Hence man is by nature good. But natural characteristics, since they are opposed to freedom and the
    conception of the spirit, and are, hence, negative, must be eradicated. Thus man is by nature evil’.

    I think GWF Hegel is telling us that the pressures of the Real-World would subject us to harsh consequences if we, under the guise of Free Will, take an action outside the social norm or the duty of our station. And thus, there are limitations to how much freedom we can actually exercise. Do we have the “Free Will” to murder someone? (RHETORICAL) YES! But in doing so, will we be dealt with accordingly by society? (RHETORICAL) YES! So, in the shadow of realism, Hegel ask gives us pause to think and asks the questions[/QUOTE]

    The text is #18. The Philosophy of Right (mcmaster.ca)

    Hegel seems to be praising the Christian doctrine of original sin but sees it dialetically. I find the doctrine absurd and sadistic.
     
  16. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    What remains is the direction you choose to go.
     
  17. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Georg Hegel and the Question of Free Will
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    I am not a scholar of GFW Hegel's works. But I hold the view that Hegel accepted "original sin" to be a component included in the Three Principle Supernatural Mysteries.

    ◈ The "Trinity

    ◈ The Incarnation

    ◈ The Elevation of a finite person (regular human) into a Divine Life.​


    Original Sin is, for all intent and purposes, "dogma." It is considered to be a sin committed by divinely created mythical ancestors, but not by man → as we understand man to be today. In this regard, if the Supreme Being created the "Mystical Ancestor" (Adam & Eve) that committed the Original Sin, then either:

    ◈ The Supreme Being is flawed because the Omnipotent Power could not create a perfect set of Mythical Ancestors.

    ◈ The Mystical Ancestors were intentionally made to commit the Original Sin (a form of predestination or fate) against the Omniscient Supreme Being. This calls into question (Free Will).

    ◈ The flaws of the Mystical Ancestor were beyond the powers of the Supreme Being to remotely view the offending action in time (Omnipresent Power).

    ◈ There was no Original Sin → calling into question the theory of Mystical Ancestor.​

    There is no real devine logic (that has been imparted upon man by a Supreme Being) that contradicts your presentation that the doctrine is "absurd and sadistic." Man has no real idea as to the veracity of the set of principles laid down by various religious authorities as incontrovertibly true. Much of the notion supporting the Three Principle Supernatural Mysteries are only meaningfully credible through faith and claims of a communication (divine influence) with the great beyond.

    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R
     
  18. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    Okay. I find your formatting to be forbidding.
     
  19. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    here is no real devine logic (that has been imparted upon man by a Supreme Being) that contradicts your presentation that the doctrine is "absurd and sadistic." Man has no real idea as to the veracity of the set of principles laid down by various religious authorities as incontrovertibly true. Much of the notion supporting the Three Principle Supernatural Mysteries are only meaningfully credible through faith and claims of a communication (divine influence) with the gre​
     
  20. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    You clearly are not interested in Hegel and want to promote your religion. Not interested.
     
  21. RoccoR

    RoccoR Well-Known Member Donor

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    RE: Is Atheism a logical belief?
    SUBTOPIC: Georg Hegel
    ※→ Aristotle66, et al,

    (PREFACE) Like I said in Posting #1001 GWF Hegel is not the only philosopher of renown that we can discuss. I am open to any reasonable suggestion. I am open to any philosophical subject, scope, or topic (metaphysical or the classical sciences). I am a clean slate.

    (COMMENT)
    .
    Well, I am not sure my very few commentaries suggest a disregard or alternate focus of attention concerning GWF Hegel contributions. I do not maintain the same position on certain topics as that of Hegel. I have no interest in assailing Hegel (ad Hominem Fallacy) rather than the proposition he argues.

    Well, IF you have the impression that I promote or have a preference for one Abrahamic Religion over another,THEN you are mistaken. To understand an opposing view is not the same thing as supporting that view. I would have thought my use of Sigils would have made that much clear. But IF not, THEN let me make it clear. I do not openly support any of the mainstream Abrahamic Religions; not, do I subscribe to the general position of atheism or even monotheism. But I am open minded enough to discuss and of them; one at a time.
    .
    [​IMG]
    Most Respectfully,
    R

    I had not realized that the definable formatting was such an impediment. But I have labeled each part so that you might better understand my approach. The use of "et al" indicates an invitation to anyone. If I use the abbreviated form of BLUF: it means Bottom Line Up Front.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2021
  22. Aristotle66

    Aristotle66 Banned

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    I told you I am not interested in religion. Goodbye.
     
  23. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Sigils? Like the Sacred magic of Abramelin? That kind of Sigil?
     

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