Is Neo[Atheism] a Rational Religion?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    64,624
    Likes Received:
    35,808
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you aren't a theist (and your answer keeps changing about that), then why do you need "theological speak"?
     
  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Its not about coming up with a definition though.
    Atheist is the negation of the 'root' word theist, (a-)theist.
    Theist is actually the definition of those who accept the existence of a supernatural entity or deity as true.
    How can someone reject some unstated hypothesis that never came into existence?
    The word theist would not exist for you to add the (a-) to.
    Thats the problem with using LoB, Absence, and Without as a 'definition' for atheism.
    In every case each of them can exist not only without the word theist also without the existence of the 'word' God which of course leads us to total absurdity in logic.
    This is why, in philosophy, the definition of atheism is someone that denies the existence of God, where atheism is properly thought of as the negation of theism.
    How can you not be a driver if nothing first exists to drive.
    It defies sanity.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Not my terms, ask him.
     
  4. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    64,624
    Likes Received:
    35,808
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cool, so you don't even actually agree with the argument you are advancing. Glad we can both agree that your question was completely irrelevant.
     
  5. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    yep SSDD always blaming me for your screwups.
     
  6. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    64,624
    Likes Received:
    35,808
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Lol, you literally asked a question, I asked you for the basis of your question, and you ran away from your own question. I didn't hypnotize you into asking the question that you now acknowledge to be complete nonsense. This was your screw up. You are, once again, guilty of exactly the same thing you are accusing others of.
     
  7. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Koko said that atheism as lack of belief in god can exist without theism. I disagree.

    You have to have the idea of god, and belief in god, before you can say that some people lack belief in god. You can't have lack of belief in god if the idea of god doesn't exist. It would be impossible to even think of atheism if theism didn't exist.

    Think of a tree that falls in a forest where there are no living beings. Does it make a sound? Can you define "sound" if there's no ear to hear it?
     
  8. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I disagree. If theists wouldn't exist, the idea of god, and belief in god, wouldn't exist. Lack of belief in god wouldn't exist.
     
    Blues63 likes this.
  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What a crock, I did not advance an argument, I asked a question about HIS argument that HE is advancing.
    you post twisted **** then blame me, same MO as the Jbird
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  10. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thats why LoB, Without, and Absence cannot be a ligitimate definition of atheism because all of them can stand on their own without the existence of a theist. The atheists of the [Neo] variety have really lead people on a wild goose chase, sorry.

    You could say lack of belief, Without, and Absence of belief for anything you never heard of, which creates an an absurdity. ie: nonsense.

    Dictionaries merely publish popular usage so we can somewhat better comprehend what each other is saying.

    In most cases they do not analyse the words outside determining best 'usage' of the time.

    Usage all to often has nothing to do with what a word actually means in an analytical sense which is the sense philosophy has to deal with words.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  11. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Basically what they have done is turn logic on its head.

    We dont start with a atheist, (nonexistence) then negate it with existence, theist.

    We start with a 'claim' something is true (exists), then the negation is a direct counter claim of nonexistence, false.

    If you see a cup sitting on a counter you dont disbelieve that the cup has water in it until someone positively asserts there is water in it and you are convinced there is none.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  12. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,004
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I have no idea what that is.
     
  13. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree that we need revisions, however no one has been able to come with an effective replacement.
     
  14. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    IF LoB is used as a "definition" for atheism, then atheists can exist......!
    Please use the qoute feature so you get it right.
    Using terms that cant be formatted philosophically takes us into a whole nuther realm of weirdness.
     
  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    9,339
    Likes Received:
    4,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You have to have the idea, yes. You don't have to have anybody who believes it is true (ie, theism). Everybody could lack that belief (ie, atheism), without anybody thinking it true. That would apply to many fictional characters.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  16. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,004
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That doesn't make sense, but I shouldn't expected more.
     
  17. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    true, but it does not stop there.
    false, theism defines 'what' is believed, or the positive hypothesis.
    Sure but that does not make it acceptable as a definition as I previously explained.
    So you claim to put me on iggy then use pisa as a proxy! :roflol:
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    arent we still talking about rorty?
     
  19. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    We know that fictional characters don't really exist. I might be wrong, but it seems to me that knowing that something doesn't exist is not the same as lack of belief.
     
  20. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Heres the thing,

    If you walk up to someone and say; "hey what do you think about god", and they look at you and say duh wha?
    That is a person that truly lacks belief in God.

    Now you take someone like yourself or the bird or anyone else that is informed about God and they claim they lack belief in God that misrepresents their true position. Once they think about it, and have made a decision after tinking about it that they do not believe it, they hold the conviction that they cannot agree with belief in God, once that decision is made its no longer lack of belief, its now a decision not to believe, therefore they hold the belief that God does not exist. I have yet to find so much as one person that claims lack of belief that is totally uninformed and has not made a decision to disbelieve.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  21. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,478
    Likes Received:
    2,113
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Are our decisions truly our own? Do we decide, solely on a conscious level, what to believe? I don't think so. Unless you can prove that our decisions are made solely at a conscious level simply because we knowingly choose them, I can't answer your post. Your whole argument is based on an unproven premise.
     
    Jolly Penguin likes this.
  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2009
    Messages:
    23,960
    Likes Received:
    1,904
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Of course, and you are the source.
    If you pull out a gun and toast someone there is no court on the planet that is going to buy that you did it anything but consciously.
    Even if you could prove the decision was unconscious, there is no way that you could prove your standing 'conviction' is unconscious. your counter fails.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  23. (original)late

    (original)late Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    8,372
    Likes Received:
    4,004
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, 'we' are trolling.

    Which should tell you something, seeing as this is a philosophy forum..
     
  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    9,339
    Likes Received:
    4,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes. They are not equal. Though the former indicates the latter, the latter does not require the former. You lack belief in the affirmative if you affirm the negative or also if you don't believe in either direction (what some would call agnostic).
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    9,339
    Likes Received:
    4,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That is a good question, and the answer appears to often be no when it comes to our beliefs. We often don't choose consciously what to believe. Some of us may have greater ability for self delusion that others, but can any of us really truly will ourselves to believe things such as that we are elephants, etc?

    Our actual perceptions along with logic dictate most of our beliefs, and at least for many atheists that includes atheism.

    I never chose not to believe the Muslim God exists, and I can not will myself to believe that God does exist regardless of how hard I try to. No more than I can will myself to believe I am an elephant or that I can flap my arms and fly. I didn't decide to be atheist. I just am.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
    Pisa likes this.

Share This Page