Is Neo[Atheism] a Rational Religion?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Kokomojojo, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    That he doesn't is more evidence that he doesn't actually exist. Meanwhile, according to your scriptures, he's done EXACTLY that kind of **** before. Thank you for admitting that it would be awful for him to do so . . . even though your Bible says he has . . . proving that you either have to reject the Bible/your God or admit that he is awful.

    Also, it isn't a "kindness" to just not commit evil against someone. Please tell me you understand this. Failing that, again, a random kid in any kindergarten class will likely be able to give you better ethical instruction than your religion has.
     
  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    So absolutely anything, no matter how terrible it would otherwise seem, is made Good if God commands it?

    I hope I misunderstood you, because that attitude terrifies me. It is what leads people to fly planes into buildings or poison their children, thinking God told them to.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Why did they say that? Same meaning? How so?

    'Hot' and 'cold', 'warm' and 'cool' are just "word preferences" too, so whats your point?

    How about: 'Day', 'night', 'Morning', 'Afternoon', Evening'?

    Just meaningless semantic; "word preferences" or what?

    We should get rid of them? What?

    You remember that one of the characteristics in your definition of troll is people that make pointless posts.

    Maybe this is another thing you say that you realize was a really stupid argument so you pretend you never made it?

    I know! Eureka! You thi8nk every thing is atheist! (even theists!) :roflol:

    and all this without an explanation!
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeh, and as a side note, we all know whats coming next riiiiiight?

    define hot
    define warm
    define cool
    define cold

    We are dealing very complicated english language here.
     
  5. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is good and there is evil. Every day people feel justified in all manner of evil. And it is up to each of us to determine for ourselves what is right and wrong. You seem to think that God is predisposed to evil rather than to good, or that he is alien to conscience. In fact, every good conscionable thing that anyone does is service to God.
     
  6. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Then we are in the strange situation where condemning God for his evils would be in service to God.
     
  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I realize you think you are on to something. But the self righteous animus you harbor is adversarial to God. Satan is Gods adversary. He knows the scriptures frontwards and backwards, and can make of them whatever he wishes to suit his own ends, which is always to the destruction of Gods plan and the souls of men. Consider your motivations, whether they be of God or Satan. Who is your God, or are you just slashing back and forth in the dark?
     
  8. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    When you defend the idea that it used to be okay to murder blasphemers and apostates and even children, just because God commanded it, consider your motivations, whether they be out of a concern for morality, or out of a desire to worship a God no matter how evil he is.
     
  9. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Dude, your interpretations and allegations go no further in truth than that. It is what you think. But that doesn't make what you think real or true. God didn't die for his sins, but for yours/ours. To suggest otherwise is preposterous. If you wish to dismiss the entire matter off hand and perish in your sins or as you are, so be it. If you think that hating God will bring you peace in death, then you are your own worst enemy. At some level I think you know this. If God is evil and has no judgment as you presume, then you are in deep doo doo. If there is no God, then you have nothing to worry about. What gets me is how swift you are to blame God rather than yourself in regards to what seems wrong or insensible in ancient scriptures. It tells me that understanding is not your goal. Blaming God is your goal. And that should be alarming to you because it means that you think that you are God.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  10. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    No. I don't see any reason to presume any Gods to exist, and if they do, then I don't see any reason to presume them to be good or bad.

    But I can read and the bible does depict it's God doing some things I find to be horrible. If that's not your God, or if you say those parts of the bible are wrong or somehow don't mean what they say, etc that's cool with me.

    Cool. That sounds better than what I read in the bible.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  11. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Your Bible literally says that God did these things. It's in your scriptures. It isn't "interpretation." That's what your scriptures say. And no, Pascal's Wager isn't going to work -- that's one of the most intellectually lazy, intellectually dishonest, and irrational of theistic arguments. And, no criticizing the way God is portrayed in the Bible is not the same thing as thinking that one is God. That's argument is just dumber than a box of hair.
     
  12. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Would you post one reference in the Bible to support your allegations.
     
  13. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. It depends on whether or not you are willing to engage. I don't want to sound mean, but I've been through this too many times before. So I will ask you what I've asked others (and no one has ever answered honestly): Let's assume for a moment that you think it is wrong to murder children. Let's just assume. So, if I show you that your scriptures claim that God has ordered the murder of children would you:

    1) Question your scriptures or
    2) Decide that murdering children is more acceptable than you previously thought?

    I can tell you are already backing out of this conversation, but I'll keep trying:

    I'm asking you to appreciate my dilemma here. I think that freedom of religion should be a thing. Most US Christians agree with me on that. But when I object to the way their scriptures disagree with this principle, they are now forced to choose between their previously professed agreement with freedom of religion and what their scriptures say . . . and they often choose the later. By pointing out that their scriptures don't support freedom of religion, they end up abandoning the concept of freedom of religion. The more successfully I debate . . . the more Christians are driven into supporting violent extremism.

    To help you visualize this more, I've had this exact same kind of exchange with Christians in college dozens of times (and, well, actually well before that as this is what started my path to skepticism).

    Me: "Is it okay to kill children? If God ordered you to kill children, would you do it? Would you think it is okay?"
    Christian: "God would never do that!"
    Me: "If you heard the voice of God telling you to murder children, would you do it?"
    Christian: "NO! God would never do that, and if any voice told me to do that, I'd know it wasn't he voice of God!"
    Me: "But your scriptures say that God HAS ordered the execution of children."
    Christian: "NO! No, they don't! Prove it!"
    Me: [Proves it]
    Christian: "Well, upon further reflection, it actually is sometimes okay to murder children."

    This is what I've dealt with time and time and time again. So, before I proceed, I need you to confirm: if asked to choose between your scriptures and executing nonbelievers, children, etc., if a conflict is proven, will you choose freedom of religion, etc., or will you choose your scriptures?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  14. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    I have an idea!

    Why dont you 2 get a room?
     
  15. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    3) Deny the scriptures are saying what they are literally saying. Call it an allegory or a bit no longer followed, etc.
    4) Launch any sort of distraction, be it an adhom attack, unrelated question asked back at you, etc.

    3 and 4 are often the response.

    But to be fair to the Christians, most of them don't know these parts of the bible, and don't follow them. Most think Christianity is about love, peace and forgiveness, and I think that's a great thing.

    I just wish they'd re-write the bible, bringing it more in tune with modern values, to lower the risk of moral regression in future generations of Christians. Maybe replace the KJV with the IV (Injeun version).
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  16. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    I asked for a single biblical reference to support your allegation that God is unjust.
     
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And I asked you if anything I said would be something that you would actually be willing to address. You refused to answer.

    But, whatever, let's see if you will be honest.

    1 Samuel 15:2-3

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

    Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
     
  18. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Okay. That's pretty clear cut. So what? It wasn't religion. It was war against a ruthless enemy. Saul was told to kill them all, men, women and children, including their livestock. Whatever was Gods purpose in it is known to God, not to me. Ironically, Saul was removed by God as King for sparing the best of the livestock, thus not following Gods orders in detail. To address your former allegation that God orders the seeking of unbelievers and their death. This entry does not fit the bill. Perhaps you have another reference that proves your point.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  19. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Babies aren't "ruthless enemies." Neither is livestock. Who could possibly be psychotic enough to actually believe that bull ****?

    You should try actually reading the verses. This involved God supposedly ordering these murders because of what the ANCESTORS of the victims had done GENERATIONS ago. Even if, by some miracle, you could find away to excuse the murder of the children (as you are doing now), how does it make sense to kill the livestock? Had the oxen been trained to murder Israelites? And, yes, according to the Bible, Saul was removed by God for not obeying his lunatic, evil orders to the T. Making Saul morally superior to your devil God.

    But you've already told me what is going to happen now. You act shocked at the idea that God would order the murder of children, but once it is proven, you are suddenly okay with said infanticide order.

    You now act shocked that God would order murder for blasphemy, pretending that you actually care about freedom of religion, but the moment I product the verse, you will IMMEDIATELY change your mind and decide that killing people for blasphemy at least used to be okay. That's why I asked you about the bull **** that I knew you would resort to. You are heading for the exact same nonsense that I predicting in post #5088.

    Leviticus 24:16 - Have fun worshipping your freedom-hating murder demon.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    God had freed them from bondage and they were in need of strict discipline to wean them from ungodliness. They were people of the covenant. And I suppose that God determined that losing some was an acceptable cost to the salvation of Israel and Gods promise to save them. While this is closer to your original complaint, I don't think it fully supports it. You talk as if God goes around telling complete strangers to either worship him or die. And this passage does not fit that mold. Got another? BTW, I was neve shocked at your infanticide assertions. I figured you had taken it out of context. And I was right. You really do need a course adjustment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  21. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Injeun, there are many such problematic bits in the bible, most of which go ignored today by modern Christians. Do you see any good reason to keep these bits in the book, or would you support re-writing the bible and including only the positive parts, such as Jesus' sermon on the mount, etc?
     
  22. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Not that I'm qualified to say. But for me, I'd say no.
     
  23. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Why not? Why keep the problematic parts that makes God look bad?
     
  24. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    It only looks bad to people from today’s morality?
     
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  25. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    To me, they don't make God look bad. They test his followers faith, and provide bones of contention for his enemies to gnaw on, or as a way to divide the wheat from the chaff. So they are wise in keeping for this cause.

    Consider that Jesus taught forgiveness of trespass or sin. But he also taught repentance of sin. So where is it written that even the smallest sin by man is justified to God? Therefore Jesus Gospel covers the length of any mans life like a blanket. Such is the history of the Jews and their relationship with God. One cannot call it negligible to blaspheme God. God was strict, then he was merciful. But he remained God, his values unchanged in the fashioning of mankind to his liking, over the course.

    Such is the Bible to me, the fashioning of man by the hand of God. We are the created, and he the creator. Six thousand years ago, they obeyed blindly. We today have the distinct advantage to see it on the path of history, Gods hand. Now you may say, no, no, no, that's not how it is. But I say, yes, yes, yes, that is how it is.

    Do you think that God chose the Jews for no more reason than the moment. And the scriptures preserved for nothing? Does one ask for proof of God and then close ones eyes? God made an example of the Jews for our generation. He has set it upon the table and bade us to the feast. How have we become the children of wealth and not cry for our heritage. It is too much. But bear we must, as it is our portion. How can one not praise the God of the Jews and esteem them Brothers in Christ, should honesty prevail and chase away unbelief. Like Jesus said, "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
     

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