Israelis vilified for lack of "sympathy" for Hamas savages

Blaming Hamas for Gazans’ Suffering, Many Israelis Feel Little Sympathy (link). I am now a recording of Netanyahu's address to Congress. Netanyahu and Israel have been vilified for defending civilization against barbarism and savagery. An excerpt:

Moral equivalence between Israel and the Gazan attackers is an outrage, pure and simple. What Hamas conducted was a barbarous massacre, much like September 11. The organizers did not die; the inflamed minions they sent did.

 

Hamas killed innocents, so did Israel.

 

Hamas started the war. Now they are having to pay. They are not too smart. Go Israel. Go Netanyahu. The world hasn't learned that if you attack Israel you are in for a world of hurt. The minute Israel stops attacking and pulls back to its border it will be attacked again.

 

Hamas basically has a tribal mentality of endless warfare. Israel should not be pressured to surrender. See the latest,
A Top Hamas Leader (Ismail Haniyeh) Is Killed in Iran .

 

Hamas and Nazis are two parts of the same philosophy. No decent person was sad when Hitler died. The same applies to the monster the Israelis executed yesterday.

 

I’m not sad about Hamas getting killed. Pretty disappointed Israel hasn’t done more to reduce civilian casualties though. If anything, it seems in many cases they are targeting civilians. Hamas is bad. Israel isn’t proving itself any better.

The civilian populations on both sides deserve better than what they have right now.

 

There are no innocents or there would be no Hamas. Probably 90%+ of the Palestinian population wants every Jew in Palestine dead and most would consider that a good start. Sorry it is damn hard to work up a lot of sympathy for people who for the most part want you dead.

 

Let’s use an extreme example: Palestinian baby in Gaza. Killed by IDF bombs. Not innocent? Were the baby’s views on Israel too radical?

 

Being held in the arms of a woman whose family had previously gotten a stipend from the PLO for suicide bombing an Isreali school bus. War sucks no one sane wants war but when the only peace the other side will accept involves turning your country into the worlds largest grave yard there isn't a lot you can do. By the way the last and only innocent person got crucified going on 2000 years ago mostly for making the rest of us look bad.

 

I don’t subscribe to theocratic views on innocence, but it does give me a better understanding of where you’re coming from. Thanks.

 

Hamas started the war. Now Palestinians, who never voted for Hamas, have to pay for Hamas sins.

 

Those 15% or so are either in the west bank with the rump of the PLO or in an unmarked grave somewhere. Hamas does not tolerate descent.

 

Why do "Palestinians, who never voted for Hamas, have to pay for Hamas sins."?

 

Hamas parks itself in tunnels under civilians. How else to destroy them?

 

Do you know why taking human shields is a war crime?

 

What is the typical ratio of combatant to civilian loss of life in a dense urban conflict?

What percentage of civilians die in such conflicts?

How does Israel’s results compare to those stats?

just testing you to see if you have any sense of perspective by which to make such statements about Israel or not

 

How about the Jewish baby the Palestinians put in a microwave oven?

When you drop a bomb, random things happen. When you put a baby in an oven and turn it on, you know what will happen.

 

I appreciate you pointing me towards this angle of approach. What I’ve found from the Palestinian Health Authority, of 39,000 killed, 70% have been women or children. According to the NGO Center for Civilians in Combat, historically the ratio has been 90% civilian to combatant death tolls.

If we assume accurate information from all parties, and barring a massive undercounting of the dead, Israel is putting forward a decent effort to avoid civilian casualties. Not as good as the 1:1 they recently claimed, but better than the historical average.

The facts, as they stand right now, do not seem to support my opinion on the matter. Hopefully that does not change significantly.

 

Assuming that happened, it’s of course terrible.

As per my previous post, I don’t know that the facts back my previously held opinions on this topic. I’ll still withhold support for Israel as my disagreements with them extend beyond the way they’ve conducted themselves in this war, but I do not believe I can continue to argue against their behavior on this particular front.

 

Genocide is not the only answer.

Israel could have manned the Israeli hospitals - allowed civilians in for treatment and gained information on where those responsible for October 7 were being held. There was no need to blow up all the hospitals in Gaza. There was no need to blow up all the water treatment plants. There was no need to destroy crops.

Blowing up the buildings and leveling everything actually makes it easier for Hamas to defend Gaza and themselves.

 

Not even remotely extreme. A toddler shot in the head by an Israel while walking down a street. Not even extreme - everyday.

 

Kudos, I really appreciate you taking the time to check it out. My understanding from what I remember of my own research is much the same—that Israel is managing to do a noticeably better job than history shows us is typical even in US examples like the battle of Fallujah.

I think it’s worth noting a couple other points that add to the difficulty Israel had faced in this:

1) other dense urban conflicts do not typically involve cities which have had 20 years to be turned into a fortress by the defenders, most notably below ground.

2) During such conflicts most of the civilian population flees the battlefield both before the battle as well as during, reducing loss of civilian life and yet the stats are still typically atrocious…but how much worse would they be if virtually 100% of civilians were forced to stay?

Israel has had to deal with 2 anomalies pretty unique to such conflicts predictably exacerbating the casualties yet had still managed to achieve remarkably good results even if we are to take the word of terrorists for the casualty reports.


As a result I have not taken these calls about genocide seriously, and am much more sympathetic to reports of mistakes by Israel and to believe them to indeed be mistakes rather than a policy matter of atrocity.


And I am very critical of Egypt for shutting the door on the Palestinians and keeping them penned in there rather than providing a safe area of refugee camps for as much aid as they need without fear of Israeli mistakes or Hamas stealing such aid

 

Palestinians absolutely did vote for Hammas in 2006.

 

2006 was their last election. Of those adults who voted for Hamas in 2006, how many are still living? Of those who are still living, how many of them knew that Hamas would attack Israel the way they did? Very few. Have a fair election now and see if Hamas wins.

 

Remember that HALF of the population of Gaza were under the age of 18 in 2006. 2006 was 18 years ago. The youngest Palestinian who voted for Hamas in 2006 is now 36 years old (18 + 18 = 36). Of those survivors how many people who voted for Hamas are still living? About 7.1%.

"As of the most recent data, about 7.1% of the population in Gaza is 36 years or older." (Wikipedia) (CIA).

"In 2006, approximately 50% of the population of Gaza was under the age of 18. This high percentage reflects the region's high birth rate and young demographic profile. This demographic trend has been consistent over the years due to the high fertility rate in Gaza."