I've Got A 9-9-9 Plan Too! 99.9% On Richest Americans.

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by protectionist, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    Ok... interesting statistics.... but I found the following....

    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politi...-warfare-fire-The-rich-yes-are-getting-richer

    So this one says that the combined wealth on the forbes 400 list is right around 1.4 trillion dollars. You claim the current deficit is about the same. So how are you claiming that they could pay for it all in just a few years. My math is actually pretty good. I am an aerospace engineer. Planes tend to keep flying because of my math ability. :mrgreen: But it certainly is possible you might be an economist.... my understanding of that is certainly not as great....
     
  2. Pollycy

    Pollycy Well-Known Member

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    Whoa! Wait! Stop! Unless all the headlines from just this past Wednesday were incorrect, Obama's "Shovel Ready, Part II" was defeated in the DEMOCRAT-CONTROLLED SENATE!

    Republicans won't rule the Senate until January 22, 2013, so don't start blaming Republicans for problems in the ranks of the Socialists when it's the Socialists themselves, under hyperlib über-Führer HARRY REID who have shot themselves in the foot! :omg:
     
  3. jhffmn

    jhffmn New Member

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    My plan is to make sure you get to live off that 10 bucks an hour and don't get a dime more until you earn it.
     
  4. Rexxon

    Rexxon Well-Known Member

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    It's not the ideal solution, By any means. I'd much rather us work together and come up with compromises and ideas that would shrink the wealth gap by enacting changes that would reduce the amount of waste and fraud in our social services, Pay livable wages for ANYONE that has a job to cover bare needs, And cut taxes for businesses.

    Unfortunately, I do not see the above option happening. The whole reason for existence of businesses is to make the most profit possible. Enough is never enough and they will always do whatever they have to to increase profits. They have worked their influence into the government to help expedite this. In the end, Their greed will ruin the lives of many poor and lower-middle class people, To enrich a fewer number of upper-middle class or rich people.

    Answer me this: If the businesses can be greedy and do anything they want to make profit, Even if it is morally wrong, Why can't the poor and destitute do the same? Why CAN'T they enact laws of redistribution or taxation that benefit themselves, The businesses do.

    This is my point.

    Greed is a fact of life. Unless the rich are willing to exterminate the poor and destitute, The poor are going to get to the point where their desire for greed will cause them to take drastic action to get what they want. How do you plan on stopping them?

    Thank you for your time.
     
  5. Stillmatic101

    Stillmatic101 New Member

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    this. /thread
     
  6. HB Surfer

    HB Surfer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Show me a country with no rich people and I will show you a country of misery.
     
  7. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    You raise interesting questions.... I think the difference in reference to the bolded text above is all about what is forced... and what is voluntary. All of those people that waited in line to buy the new iphone were not forced to give their money to apple corporation were they?

    Why do you say that businesses "ruin" the lives of poorer people? Are these people being forced to work somewhere against their will? Is there someone or some govt office stopping these people from getting more education to qualify for better paying jobs? Why is it the responsibility of govt and business to ENSURE that everyone has a great wage irreguardless of the skills that they do or do not have? If YOU owned a company, why on earth would you want to pay someone a great salary that had no skills (or very little ability) to benefit your company in any way? To my way of thinking.... your life belongs to you, and you alone. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure that you get enough education for yourself to earn a decent living.

    And if college is not for you (it is not for everyone) learn a trade! Become an electrician, carpenter, plumber, mechanic. Some of those folks make HUGE salaries (even in THIS economy) and have never been to a university. There are so many opportunities available to people if they want to take them. If you start out in life poor... then YES... things are going to be tougher for you. But it all has to do with priorities in your life. If I lived and grew up in a rough neighborhood with very little chance of employment there... I would move my a$$ somewhere else. THAT would be at the top of my priority list. And I would give up the XBOX, fancy car, and dozens of nights at the local bar to make it happen!

    The bottom line is... I am not responsible for other peoples poor choices in life. I feel for them.... If I am asked I might consider helping some of them. But being told that I must help people under threat of violence is a bit too much like extortion to me. I take a VERY dim view of that sort of attitude.
     
  8. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    Well said sir.... and from California no less... I hope people like you can turn things around in your state soon....
     
  9. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    My plan is to have all the 10 buck an hour people take back the money their cheapskate employers STOLE from them by underpaying them, by kicking their GREEDIST asses with at least as much taxation as we the USA have normally had in the past (70%+ tax on top brackets).

    So now all those business owners who sat on their (your maybe) fat asses, while the employees were EARNING their companies' money, will be able to say they (the owners) finally made a contribution.
     
  10. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    Show me a country with the largest gap between the rich and the poor (USA ?) and I'll show you lots of misery.
     
  11. protectionist

    protectionist Banned

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    I was under the impression that his income was salary, but as I said businesses could/should be taxed too if they can afford it. If one guy is pocketing $2 Billion/year that is an easily afford case. As for confiscating business, I'm not suggesting anything the USA hasn't done for most of the past 94 years with top bracket taxes on the rich never less than 70%. For 13 straight years (1951-1963) they were 91-92%.
     
  12. Antix

    Antix New Member

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    Couldnt the government just pay every person in the U.S. 1 Billion dollars? Then we would all be rich and be free of problems.
     
  13. P. Lotor

    P. Lotor Banned Past Donor

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    Well, I explained what would happen if you start taxing unrealized capital gains, there is nothing to tax next year because all business would be government owned. That would be entirely unacceptable. No one earns even close to a billion in salary.
     
  14. P. Lotor

    P. Lotor Banned Past Donor

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    I challenge any lib to explain the problem with this scenario.
     
  15. Antix

    Antix New Member

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    Im with ya buddy, lets wait and see.
     
  16. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Well, that's all the right wing fraudsters really want, is for everyone to be rich. (Nobody around to do the actual work required, but, somehow, everybody can be rich).
     
  17. Rexxon

    Rexxon Well-Known Member

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    A fair argument. But consider the difference between a choice and a 'false choice'.

    If I'm homeless and starving, and a person offers me an under the table job at his factory, working 12 hour days in the sweltering heat for 10-20 dollars a day, My choices are to take his job and have SOME income, Or not take his job and hope for better later, While having NO income. Meanwhile, That businessman is making more profit by hiring me than by paying the LEGALLY mandated wages, and saving even more money if he is not keeping up on various environmental and workplace regulations. He benefits hundreds of times more than me, Whereas all I get to do is live another day.

    And the argument of bettering ones self is not a be-all end all solution either. I lack both the money and the time to go to college, And if I could I would be pretty much forced to take a degree in a field I would hate just to be able to make a good living.

    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm working full 40 hour workweeks. I work harder now than I have in the past. But that extra effort and work is not being paid to me in form of wages or benefits, It is pocketed by businesses as extra profit.

    Why should I HAVE to work harder and harder just to maintain my standard of living? What happens when I hit the limit of my productivity (and there is always a limit)? Why shouldn't businesses accept a little less profit (keeping in mind they will still be richer than most of us) in order to ensure a stable, livable wage for their employees?

    Thank you for your time.
     
  18. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    Not a false choice at all! Most people did not start out in life homeless and starving! That is usually the end of a very long chain of bad choices, and bad decisions that usually goes back years if not decades. You have to understand that I am talking in generalities, in percentages of people. You will ALWAYS be able to find a very rare instance where through no fault of their own, someone became homeless etc. The point that I am trying to illustrate, is that there are so many things that people can choose to do in their lives that will tip the odds of something good happening for them in their favor. Usually dramatically in their favor.

    The best way to avoid being poor, is to stop doing the activities that keep people poor. It starts early in life..... very early. And each decision that you make builds upon that last one. People that are deliberate in their thinking and plan things out usually find a way to succeed. Those that "bounce around" aimlessly with no plan, are the ones who usually have randomly bad things happen to them.

    To better your life is not going to be easy or convienient! It takes commitment to break the cycle of behaviors that have brought you to where you are today. You say you lack the money and time to get more education to better yourself? Sorry... I have to wave the BS flag on that one! It is all about choices... I guarantee you if you really thought about it, you could find money that you are spending on things that are not completely needed. You are typing a message on a computer that you currently own that you bought at some point. That computer must have cost at LEAST a couple hundred dollars! So.... it is more important that you being able to spend your time on the Political Forums, or invest that money into taking classes that could lead to you making a higher salary that would change the course of your life? Choices and priorities are in play here. If your really want to increase your income you have to want it bad... Only then will you do the things needed to make it happen. It is always easier to do nothing. It is very hard to chance direction and do something differently.

    Like I said before.... neither the government, nor businesses are responsible for YOUR poor choices in life. If you want a better paying job... then it is incumbent upon YOU, to make sure you aquire the skills to make yourself more valuable to the company you want to work for! I find it hard to believe that there is no area of study that you would find interesting, and through additional training would not lead to a higher paying job. Or strike out on your own, and become your own boss. Some of the richest people in the world never graduated from a college or university. This is more of a mindset problem than anything else. Not you or anyone else, is entitled to anything in this life. Not a job, or a home, or a certain standard of living. Those are things you have to earn for yourself. Saying that you "deserve" more is not nearly enough.... you have to earn it. And that "earning" starts with what YOU are doing, not with what a current employer may or may not be giving you. If in 5 years you are still working the same job you hate now, making the same low salary that you are now, then YES... it most certainly will be your fault, and not the fault of your employer for not paying you more.
     
  19. Rexxon

    Rexxon Well-Known Member

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    What you say could be considered accurate. Buy why is your way the only 'right' way?

    My opinion is, There is no point in living life just to survive. It is important to live life happily. Having to give up all the things that I have that make me happy, To have to struggle for whom knows how many years, Only for the CHANCE to live happily ever after?

    If I could be guaranteed a future where I could be happy after say, four or five years of hardship, I might consider giving up all of my luxuries, and devote all my spare time to getting a degree (and considering my job, It would likely require all of my spare money and time), But there are no guarantees in life.

    Buy why should my work be worth less and less as life wears on? I work just as hard as I did when I start my job, If not harder. What morally gives the employer the right to continually pocket my extra productivity as profit for his shareholders? Why shouldn't he be giving a portion of that extra productivity to ME as higher pay?

    That is what I have a problem with. The employer has ALL of the power. The employee has little or no say in the determination of how much their pay is worth.

    I don't WANT to have to go back to college for a degree in a field I don't want to work. I don't want to have to risk everything I have to start a business. I WANT to be able to just work my 9-5 job in the field I do enjoy. Maybe get promoted after a time, And make enough money to cover my basic needs in life and have a small amount left over to cover a few luxuries. I want to spend my free time with my family and friends. Just because the employer says that my job is worth less and less over time does not make it so.

    In the end, It is what I want versus what businesses want. Their greed versus my greed. As businesses continue to make choices that exploit the employee. As they continue to widen the wealth gap and take more profit from the middle class, The number of poor and upset people will grow. And in a country where the majority of people decide HOW things will work, Do businesses really believe it's in their best interests to exploit the poor majority?

    Thank you for your time.
     
  20. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    It may sound cliche..... but life is certainly not fair. Best you learn to accept that now... or live a life full of misery. The world is not going to change to suit YOU. It is YOU that must change to adapt to the way the world is.

    You are correct... there are no guarantees in life. You want to put in the minimum amount of effort, yet get out the maximum amount of reward. You want success.... but want to avoid risk. You do not want to start a business yourself... yet you are upset at what you are able to make as a salary working for someone else. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Just not going to work that way. As long as you look at the world with the mindset of, "I think I am worth X amount.... it is unfair that others do not give me what I think they should!" then you will always loose. If you change your way of thinking to, "So what would it take for me to do so that I would be worth more to you... so I can get a higher salary?" then you will get somewhere. Remember.... if you are low skilled... an employer really does not need you that badly. The more skills that you have, the more things you can do for an employer, and then you become more valuable, and your salary goes up.

    I have mentioned this many time before here in the forums. The salary that you make is determined by two values only. 1. How rare is the skill that you have (as in what percent of the population can do what you do). 2. How in demand is that perticular skill? When the skill is rare, and the demand is high... your salary will be high. If the skill is common, and the demand is low... then your salary will be low. Perhaps 1% of the population can play basketball on a professional level. That is why they make millions. Doctors are the same. It takes years of training, and even then, not every has the raw skill or brain power to do it. And that is why doctors get a high salary. Teachers and policemen get paid lower not because their jobs are less important (I think they are some of the best people out there), it is just because a much higher percentage of the population would be able to do those jobs.

    So if you really want to earn a higher salary.... it is incumbent on YOU to gain the skills to make yourself in higher demand. The reason that business owners have the wealth that they do, is because they were and are willing to do the work, that apparently YOU are not willing to do. People do not become successfull business owners over night. It takes years and years of hard work. And there are NO 9-5 hours either! Try 12 hour days and sleepless nights trying to make it all happen. And because they were willing to put in that level of effort... they are able to reap the rewards of it. If your attitude is "Well... I do not really want to put in that much effort... but I want more anyway", then I really do not know what to say. I can show you the blueprint to become wealthy... or at least more wealthy than you are now. But it all depends upon what YOU are going to do to get it.
     
  21. Lowden Clear

    Lowden Clear Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it is power you are after, start your own business. Take a chance.
     
  22. Rexxon

    Rexxon Well-Known Member

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    You have a valid point, However, The gap (and thus the amount of extra effort) required to be financially successful is much greater now than it has ever been in the past.

    I only have one life to live. And although my life is far from perfect, It would be satisfactory if not for the fact that my current pay is not keeping up with inflation and expenses.

    You are correct. I don't want to sacrifice what limited time and money I have, Only for the CHANCE to have it better later. I'm not a risk taker. I want safety and security. That doesn't mean that businesses are allowed to squeeze as much work from me as they can until I'm burnt out and die from exhaustion. I'm not a cog in a machine that only benefits a select few. I'm a human being. And all human being deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.

    I'm not completely thrilled with the OWS protestors. I feel they don't have a concrete enough message and ideals to spread. And many are crass and vulgar, and are on a hair trigger for violence. But I am happy that many people are voicing their opinions that maybe, Pure capitalism is not the answer. A mixture of both capitalism and socialism is needed.

    I'm sorry, But my time is worth more than working hard, tiring, back-breaking labor just to benefit a select few. You may not agree with me, But unless you can convince a majority of people to agree with you, Laws will eventually be enacted to re-balance the scales a bit more evenly. But don't worry, I won't start slacking off or being lazy regardless. I will continue to work my 40 hour workweeks. Slowly moving up the ladder of pay and responsibilities, Because I believe in a evenly-balanced scale, Not one that is overbalanced to one side or the other.

    Thank you for your time.
     
  23. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    In response to what I have bolded above.... Then don't you deserve what you have been getting? You are basically telling me that you are unwilling to do any of the things that are neccessary to change your situation in life. Does your life belong to your employer and not to you? You are not your bosses property, and as such, he has no responsibility to take care of you. It is YOUR job to take care of you. You complain about being a slave, yet you have put the chains on yourself have you not? The fear of doing something different and possibly failing, keeps you locked into the same routine today, is it not?

    I have been laid off twice now. The first time I nearly lost everything I had. The second time (this time) it was financially a very minor bump in the road. Why the difference? I was caught unaware the first time, thought it could "never happen to me!!!!", I know better now! I know that I WILL loose my job again somehow, someday, somewhere in the future! So I save money and prepare for it... so that when the day comes... I am as ready as I can be. And you know what the funny thing is? Each time I was laid off, I fell UP. Each time after the long dark period of being out of work... I was given a nice raise for my troubles. That sort of positive outcome cannot happen without risk. No risk = no possibility of advancement.

    In this world there can be no reward without risk. I have known people that were so risk adverse, that throughout their lives they only saved money in a bank account. Pretty much the most un-risky savings ever. However, because the risk is so low, it does not gain ANY interest either. So when this person retired, they had literally "saved themselves right into the poor house".

    You are correct.... you have only one life to live, and if you want to see it go well, then you are going to have to take bold actions to see it turn out right. Is it really a "risk" to try to better yourself for a better future? You already know it is a certainty that if you do nothing, that in five years you will be in EXACTLY the same situation that you are now. Seems like a no-brainer to me....
     
  24. Rexxon

    Rexxon Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, But I'll have to agree to disagree with you there. Risk is not only, or even the most important, factor to success. Hard work and ethics/morals are just a couple of other factors that are important as well.

    Recently, I lost my job as well. Took me about a month to find a new job, Which was longer than the last time, Where I found another job within a week. But it was not risk that got me that job, It was hard work and ethics/morals. I applied at any place I could, Not just the ones in my primary career field (Customer Service). I submitted applications every week and spent my afternoons babysitting for my sister (Not paid, But as she is my room-mate making her life easier makes my life easier). The reason I was hired was not because I was willing to take risks, It was because I was employed at my last job for over 5 years, During which time I made employee of the month on three separate months. I have the experience and skills, And I (politely of course) made sure my potential employer knew it.

    But as many businesses are outsourcing jobs overseas to other countries, More and more Americans are competing for fewer and fewer jobs. Meanwhile, Those that already have their jobs find their expenses increasing while their income shrinks. A poor person living paycheck to paycheck, With responsibilities to themselves or others, Cannot afford to take risk. The odds of them failing are much greater than the odds of success. And failing these days literally means homelessness and starvation.

    I'm not trying to say that risk is not a factor to success. But I'm not in a financial or personal position to be taking a risk that would jeopardize not only my own life, but the lives of my family that I roommate with. Despite what others would say, I do not believe this means that my family and I deserve to starve or not make enough money to make ends meet. Everyone that works for a living deserves to make a living wage.

    Thank you for your time.
     
  25. armor99

    armor99 New Member

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    I was laid off most recently for a total of 8 months. And the only reason that I did not loose everything I own, is because I remembered what it was like the first time I was laid off. That was 13 years ago. That first time I was unprepared and nearly lost everything. So for 13 years I saved and had a large "warchest" of saving built up to save me for the next time. You are very fortunate to have found a job THAT quickly. The average amount of time is around 6 months.

    It is always easier to do nothing in your life. I know that only too well. Changing direction, and doing things differently than the way you have been, is a difficult thing to do. But just look at the tone of your postings. You are putting yourself in a completely dependant state on an employer "taking care" of you. It is not their job to do that. I would strongly suggest aquiring new skills that can earn you more money. Otherwise you will continually be at the mercy of your employer. If you are finding yourself living from paycheck to paycheck, then you probably need to find a way to earn more money, or find a way to live on less. The more savings you have, the less power that businesses have over you.

    What is certain is this.... if you do things the same way you have been, the results will be exactly the same. Only rarely will situations get better on their own. They have to be "pushed" in one direction or another to get better. If you found a job in a month, then most likely it was fairly low paying, and fairly low skilled. You are not entitled to anything in this life. Not a good paying job, or a nice home to live in, or good food and clean water to drink. These are things you need to go out there and EARN for yourself. You are not the child of your current employer, and as such he has no responsibility to take "care" of you.

    The path to financial freedom is through higher salaries. And the only way to get that, is to aquire for yourself the skills that are in demand in the workplace. If you were a typewriter repair man 20 years ago, and you refused to learn how to do anything else.... then yes... you would starve once computers came on to the scene. But it certainly would have been your fault for failing to adapt to the times. You life belongs to you.... the decisions that you make are owned by you. And the results of those decsions are what will affect the outcome of your life more than anything else. There are lots of things you can CHOOSE to do if you want to. But to do that you are going to have to give up some things to get there. You say you have no money to go to classes? Do you have an XBOX, computer, nice TV, etc? Sell them.... and get money for classes. In 5 years when you have more skills, and are making much more money, you can get all of those things back, an then some....
     

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