Man sentenced to 15 months prison for trying to help people extend the lifespan of old computers

Discussion in 'Computers & Tech' started by kazenatsu, May 2, 2018.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So this man was concerned about electronic waste and the effects it has on the environment and was trying to think of innovative new solutions for people to be able to reuse their computers, rather than constantly throwing it out into a landfill and buying a new one.

    "Restore discs" are a way for computer users to be able to restore their Windows software to the computer's hard drive if it crashes or must be erased. New computers all come with a free restore disc. But computer owners often lose or throw out the discs.

    A computer owner could just download the operating system for free, but doing so is a little bit more complicated, so many people just throw out their computer and buy a new one. Then the computer ends up in a landfill.

    The thing is, Microsoft does not offer restore discs individually for sale. They only come with a new computer.

    So, the Microsoft software is free (onto an already licensed computer) and Microsoft doesn't offer the physical restore disc for sale individually, but offers it free with every computer it sells. In this case, the restore disc simply makes it more convenient to restore the program to your computer, rather than trying to figure out how to download it.

    Eric Lundgren had 28,000 discs made and shipped to a broker in Florida. Their plan was to sell the discs to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so the refurbishers could provide the discs to used-computer buyers and wouldn't have to take the time to create the discs themselves. It would also allow the new buyer of the pre-owned computer to keep their computer going if there was a problem (since the previous owners almost always lost track of the original restore disc that came with their new computer).

    So it doesn't seem like there's any big problem, right?

    U.S. Customs officers seized a shipment of discs and began investigating. Law enforcement than coerced the broker in Florida, as part of a sting operation, to tell Lundgren that he wanted to buy the discs himself. The broker then sent Lundgren $3,400, thus constituting a criminal conspiracy.

    Lundgren pleaded guilty but argued that the value of his discs was zero, so there was no harm to anyone. Neither Microsoft nor any computer manufacturers sell restore discs. They supply them free with new computers, and make the software available for free downloading, for those who have paid for the software and received a license – typically a sticker with a "certificate of authenticity" number on it. Lundgren said that he was trying to make the discs available again for those who needed them, and that they could only be used on licensed computers.

    Representatives for Microsoft claimed a commercial value of the discs at $25, saying that was what Microsoft charged refurbishers for the discs. But these $25 discs also came with a Microsoft license, whereas Lundgren's discs did not. Lundgren's discs were intended only for computers that already had licenses.

    Lundgren was sentenced to 15 months in prison and a $50,000 fine.

    Lundgren later stated that he believes it's all part of Microsoft's profit model, that the company is counting on computer owners to misplace the free disc so they will be likely to just buy a new computer when the old one crashes.

    He says this ruling has set a precedent for Microsoft and other software makers to pursue criminal cases against those seeking to extend the lifespans of computers.

    "I am going to prison, and I've accepted it. What I'm not okay with is people not understanding why I'm going to prison. Hopefully my story can shine some light on the e-waste epidemic we have in the United States, how wasteful we are."​

    http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html


    Sounds like planned obsolescence, where a manufacturer intentionally designs their product to eventually stop working so the customer will have to buy a new one.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
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  2. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Our economy runs on planned obsolecense.
     
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  3. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Just put Linux on an old computer.
     
  4. reallybigjohnson

    reallybigjohnson Banned

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    There is literally no way to confirm that those disks were going to licenses users other than "taking their word for it". You can get a replacement disk, or in the case of 10, a flash drive by contacting the manufacturer of you computer. There is a cost to it which is why Microsoft went after the guy who was essentially giving away windows copies for free. The big issue is that its for a refurbishing shop and there is no way to verify anything.
     
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  5. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    "Lundgren pleaded guilty but argued that the value of his discs was zero, so there was no harm to anyone."

    In other words, he was a Moron, to plead guilty if he was indeed innocent.

    Since restore is an easy thing to accomplish even for a novice user, and better is a thumb drive, and you boot from there.

    Newer computers have a mirror partition.
    This was a stupid reason to go to Prison.

    The O.P. is not correct either, this man was selling a licensed product even if it was at cost, something people can do for themselves.

    All over You Tube how to videos.
    How silly.
     
  6. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Unless they can show primae facie evidence evidence he was illegally selling product codes along with those copies of Windows, which can be downloaded free by anyone, he commited no crimes as per the Intellectual properties act.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Really? Why do you think that? Do you know how the system actually works? Probably not if you expressed an opinion like that.

    Regardless, he did technically violate the wording of the law, so he practically had no other choice than to plead guilty. The law says he couldn't sell those discs or the program, even though the company was handing out the disc free when the computer was bought, and offering the program that is on the disc freely downloadable online.

    The company's not happy because what this man would have done would have made them lose money. Even though the program is theoretically free and the disc came with the original computer, they're counting on people losing the disk and not wanting to go the trouble of figuring out how to download the program. They'd much rather the consumer just throw up their hands and buy a new computer.

    In one sense he is right when he claims the disc doesn't have any value, since the only purpose of the disc is to download that program, and it is possible to freely download that program online without the disc, and because the disc did come free with all the original computers. However, the fact still remains that people are willing to pay some amount of money for the disc with the program on it, so it does represent some level of convenience and expertise.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  8. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't know how the frackin system works, I have not been to Court a gazillion times as a Police Officer, as Constable in other Countries.

    Sure, if you are innocent, or Guilty as hell, do not plead Guilty as you are presumed innocent, as anyone charged with a crime is presumably innocent until proven Guilty by a jury of ones peers.

    My problem is I know the system all too well and people that don't are the ones that end up in Prison as Wife to a horrible inmate.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  9. n_brown

    n_brown Newly Registered

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    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  10. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Federal prosecutors have a 97% conviction rate because they will absolutely pile on the charges so that something sticks. This man was likely accused of telecommunications fraud (he used a telephone), wire fraud (he used a computer), mail fraud (he sent things through the email) and all sorts of bogus charges.

    $50,000 fine is probably less than he'd pay a lawyer just to get started on a case like that. The Federal justice system is a joke,

    Unless you have the resources or are willing to in-debt yourself for a lifetime to lawyers, you would do the same.
     
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  11. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No company has committed more commercial fraud that Microsoft.
     
  12. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He would have spent more time in prison waiting for trial even if he was found not-guilty - and for his bothering the federal judge with a trial he would have been given the maximum if found guilty.
     
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  13. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Nope, I am not so stupid.
    I would never do anything like that.
     
  14. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Some people still imagine that the justice system is about justice.
     
  15. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you would be willing to spend 100's of thousands on a lawyer and months or years in a federal prison just to avoid a $50,000 fine and a 15 month conviction that would likely be 6 months in a minimum-security camp? All just for the chance that you might beat their fantastic conviction rates. They won't get you on copying CDs, perhaps. No need, they'll get you on conspiracy charges, or trip you up on your words and get you for lying to the FBI, like they did Martha Stewart.

    The CD guy listened to his lawyer and took the lesser pain. You, apparently, think the justice system is there to protect you and would ignore the good advice of counsel and wage a crusade against a system that is very much out to get you should you fall into its hands. There is no "innocent until proven guilty" in the Federal justice system; they will prove you guilty of something.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  16. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

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    Nope, you don't know me or what I have been through in the Courts.

    The Guy was a moron to openly mess with a Giant like the Microsoft Empire © trademarks, for starters,
    He was asking for trouble.

    Akin to robbing and stealing then pleading guilty, then whinging about the penalties, Prizon time.

    A moron in every way.
    Stupid wins Stupid prizes, gets to have Prison intimacy.

    A talk with a qualified Attourney would perhaps have saved him much heartache and pain to the rear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  17. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Now you are just moving the goal posts.

    It sounds like he got good advice: he was going to lose the case on all the charges they'd pile on him and probably rot in a cell for decades so that some prosecutor can keep his or her convictions rates in the stratosphere. Federal justice is much different than state justice. The deck is stacked severely against the defendants. Martha Stewart was not convicted for the crime of which she was accused and was instead railroaded on bogus charges when she fought it in court.
     
  18. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Article about proposals for "Right to Repair" laws, where a company would be required to make available (at a reasonable price) the parts and information for consumers to be able to repair their electronic devices.

    ‘Right to repair’ law may run into the changing definition of ‘ownership’ - MarketWatch
    Wallace Witkowski, October 1, 2021

    FTC considers enshrining the right into law

    The notion of a continuing contract between buyer and seller instead of the purchase of a physical good has become contentious with the rise of the right-to-repair movement. The intention is to give consumers the right to repair a product if it breaks, instead of being forced to buy a new one or pay the original manufacturer to repair it.


    President Joe Biden has advocated for a consumer’s right to fix a purchased product as they see fit, and a House bill was introduced in June.

    One prominent example is Apple, which reserves the right to not sell parts and tools to repair personnel who do not work at Apple’s retail stores, and voids consumers’ warranties if they try to repair their own broken iPhones or MacBooks.
     
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Not true. To be in violation sale is not required, simply the distribution (even free) is a violation. After all, that is how they go after people who share programs on the Internet for free.
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And even back in the era where they literally packed the disks in with the computer, you would be amazed at how many times people simply threw them away.

    Heck, a hell of a lot of times when I built a new computer for somebody and put the license sticker on the case, they would bring it back some time later (normally for massive virus infections), and when I asked them what happened to the license they said they scraped it off and threw it away. And all I could do was shrug, and tell them it would then be another $100 for a new copy of Windows as I could not install it without that sticker.

    And for 20 years, almost every computer comes with an application that will let the user make their own restore disk. Even the makers are aware that just a "recovery partition" is not enough, especially if the drive itself fails so provides yet another way to make a disk yourself. But how many ever do that either? I can tell you, not damned many.

    Also, you then have to look at the facts of the case. Something that was amazingly missing in the article.

    First of all, the disks were not only copies, they were Chinese made counterfeits. Complete with the COA and end user license.

    Secondly, he started this back in 2012. That is when he made the agreements in China to have shipped to him over 25,000 copies of Windows. Complete with the COA, which he says he was going to "give away", so people could reload "old systems".

    And the final nail, the version of Windows he ordered 28,000 counterfeit copies of sent to him was, Windows 7. Which had only been released that year, and was the newest version at the time.

    https://blogs.microsoft.com/wp-content/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/2LUNDGREN6.pdf

    I myself had some curiosity about this, as I remember when it happened but that was a few years ago and I no longer remembered the details. But I remember thinking at the time the guy was guilty, and now I remember why. It was not like he was just getting copies of say XP or Windows 98 disks to be giving away, he had counterfeit copies of the newest OS ordered, complete with the COA. And they even had emails in the above document where he talked about ordering the newest version of the software to be copied, and complained about the quality of the counterfeit disks he was having made for him and how they were not good enough to pass a careful inspection.

    And that the version of Windows he was having copied was one he himself had doctored. So that it would always pass the "COA Validation" test, and not even show on Microsoft records that the key had been used or was in use. This is yet another violation of the law, and one that makes absolutely no sense if it was for the reason he tried to claim.

    No, this dude was going to sell them for a profit, as none of the facts match what the article claims.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  21. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those are some important details in this case, and it does very much change the story, but I think a part of this man's argument still holds.

    He would naturally have wanted to take some measures to prevent Microsoft from finding out about it. Just because you are trying to hide your actions does not mean you are doing something wrong.

    One of the main facts of the matter is still that Microsoft was selling these along with every computer, and refusing to sell it separately. So that would make it impossible for a consumer to refurbish the computer if there was a crash and the memory had to be completely erased (which sometimes happens), if that consumer had not made sure to save the disc.
    And the program on the disc was made available for free by Microsoft online, although it involved more difficulty to download than the vast majority of consumers would have been willing to undertake.

    It does almost seem like Microsoft was, as a business strategy, counting on normal consumers to not save these discs that came with their new computer, and then a few years later, when they were unable to get their computer to work, they would have to buy a new computer.

    I do wonder why computer refurbishing shops were not able to simply just download the restore program and why they needed these discs. I am guessing it might have something to do with convenience and required labor time.
     
  22. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you want to understand why people plead guilty to crimes even when they are innocent, see this thread:
    Pleading guilty does NOT mean that person is guilty
     
  23. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    You make a strong- sounding case, but why is it then that I've often heard of government prosecutors not taking a corporation to court, preferring to cut some lame plea bargain, because of their concerns over all the legal might that the corporation could wield? Are these all state cases I am thinking about? I could swear that federal prosecutors were involved in at least a few of these cases-- maybe, for instance, against Purdue Pharma?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2022
  24. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Oh bullshit, Microsoft has always sold their OS separately.

    And when you buy a computer with a legal copy of Windows included, you have to get either a copy of the installation disk from the manufacturer, a way to make your own from the recovery partition, or to have them send you one for a nominal fee (typically around $5). But you can go out tomorrow and buy a copy of Windows, they have never not sold it.

    I have absolutely no idea where you got your belief, but it is completely wrong.

    And it is not a "business strategy", it is the part of the agreement between Microsoft and the OEM manufacturer. As such, there are many ways for them to obtain the license. They range from a full OEM copy of the disk and COA (which is what your smaller local stores do), which is the most expensive. Down to the bulk high volume deals of like HP and Dell. They actually print their own COA stickers, but any disks and how they go beyond that is on them. Microsoft only gets maybe $10 each for those deals.

    Seems to me your real issue is not Microsoft at all, but the makers.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, it was in the story in the original article.
     

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