Modern American conservatism and libertarianism

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Foxfyre, Aug 19, 2019.

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As an American conservative and/or libertarian I believe in (multiple choice):

  1. Individual liberty and the right to be who and what I am

    87.1%
  2. The right of states and communities to organize the societies they want

    77.4%
  3. Small, necessary, effective central government

    80.6%
  4. Defense of our language, borders, culture, and keeping the peace

    80.6%
  5. Right to self defense of our person, loved ones, property, community

    90.3%
  6. Equal right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness without contribution or participation by others.

    80.6%
  7. Free trade and market driven/capitalistic economy regulated only as absolutely necessary

    80.6%
  8. Elected representatives should make all laws affecting the people materially.

    54.8%
  9. Right to our thoughts, beliefs, principles without being threatened and/or assaulted.

    90.3%
  10. Courts that interpret existing law and do not make law.

    77.4%
  11. Free speech, a free press, freedom of association and religion.

    93.5%
  12. A society takes care of the truly helpless but requires responsibility/accountability

    77.4%
  13. A military strong enough to deter others from provoking us into using it.

    77.4%
  14. Integrity of the electoral process including positive ID to register to vote and to vote.

    80.6%
  15. Other that I will explain in my post.

    16.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Please note I have never asked that government authority be used to curb homosexual activity merely that government authority not be used to force me to accept it as if it were no different than heterosexual activity inside the bonds of holy matrimony.
     
  2. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    If I am forced to participate against my will I am in essence forced to accept the activity
    That was the original formulation in the survey. It is at the heart of the statement "I was born that way." We are. from the Christian perspective all born sinners. This does not mean we cannot turn away from sin if we so choose or that being naturally attracted to sin is a good thing.nor is it an excuse to continue to sin.
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one is forcing you to accept anything. I hear this claim all the time and it is silly. Good that you distinguish between 1)having a belief and 2) forcing that belief on others.

    One of the big problems I have is that Gov't is engaging in censorship. While I many not agree with arguments against homosexuals - people have a right to be heard. Getting bad arguments out into the open is the best way to deal with these arguments - rather than hiding them under a blanket where they will fester.
     
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of liberty, have you been able to clarify your 'harm' standard in discrimination law so that it's more consistent?
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  5. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    What "survey?"
     
  6. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

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    The word "do" isn't in the above. Why not?
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I clarified this to you previously - Discrimination can cause harm such as financial loss - inability to produce or buy food.
     
  8. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Anything.
     
  9. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Only because my family insisted



    I couldn't get married prior.

    getting married under the law is marraige. Marriage is a legal status.



    Well you could have a knighting ceremony it you wanted that doesn't make you a nobleman. so do you have a wedding ceremony but can't get married there is no point.



    I've learned to talking with you that impressions don't mean anything. This conversation is so meandering and soap pointless I don't at the f*** you're talking about.



    never happened here so what difference does it make?
     
  10. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

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    Hey @Polydectes and @chris155au, while I appreciate your participation on the thread, could you please take the off topic subject of same sex marriage to an appropriate thread for that? Or fit it into the topic of what conservatives/libertarians believe? Would be much appreciated.
     
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  11. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Sure sorry about that.
     
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  12. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

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    :) You sir--I assume you are a sir?--are a scholar and a gentleman.

    When it comes to same sex marriage though, I think probably conservatives/libertarians are all over the map about that. Some, like myself, support the concept though I do wish there could be a separate term for it than traditional marriage, but I am not passionate about that. But no conservative/libertarian worthy of the name would deny a public discussion about it or treat a gay person poorly for no other reason than he/she is gay.

    I think most of us might agree that rules and regs re same sex marriage are not the constitutional prerogative of the federal government any more than traditional marriage is. And it is just as wrong to discriminate against gay people as it is straight people or black people or anybody else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  13. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    As far as marriage goes I tend to be more libertarian and that I don't think the government should be involved. What individuals decide to contract to one another or marry one another and the state government sticks to state government stuff. That way we don't have to worry about legal meanings of terms like marriage.
     
  14. ProgressivePower

    ProgressivePower Active Member

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    Well, I was once a progressive, which of course is an ideology based around force and collectivism, but my eyes have opened, and I see the light of liberty. I consider myself a libertarian now. And no, I am not a troll.
     
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  15. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Which nobody has done. We don’t have holy matrimony in the US. We have legal marriage. In the eyes of the law, same sex couples and opposite sex couples are identical. You are free to not like that, and free to not marry someone of the same sex. But that is all.
     
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  16. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Obviously you haven't been paying attention
     
  17. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Nothing I said in my post was incorrect. We don’t have holy matrimony. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Same sex and opposite sex marriage is identical. All facts. Sorry.
     
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  18. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member

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    In conservative/libertarian (little "L") ideology, or perhaps a better way would to say the basic values, re marriage is for the purpose of establishing familial relationships which affects inheritance of property, but is mostly to protect any children that result from that union. Age restrictions, those closely related by blood cannot marry, and what becomes binding in marriage contracts, and how marriage contracts can be annulled or dissolved, are all proper roles for the state to establish. And it is because marriage has traditionally been the assumption that a family is formed with children as a possibility, with most of the rules and regulations for the benefit of those children, it was assumed until recent decades that marriage is a union between a man and a woman for the purpose of forming a family unit within a much larger family of ancestors extending back as far as we can trace our family histories.

    In same sex unions, attractions and affection also exists, and most conservatives/libertarians consider that real and significant, but it is not the same thing as marriage. There obviously is not universal agreement on that on any side of that discussion, but that can be debated on another thread more suitable for that purpose.

    Likewise conservatives/libertarians consider marriage a good thing and a primary factor in forming stable, peaceful, productive, and prosperous communities that rarely, if ever, form when traditional marriage is not the societal norm.
     
  19. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    First we still have church marriage, which is holy matrimony as far as Christians go. And you'd still be forcing Christian caterers, bakers photographers et Al to participate if Scotus hadn't told you to screw off.
     
  20. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Which is meaningless, unless a marriage license is obtained. So, as I said, we don’t have holy matrimony. We have marriage.

    SCOTUS didn’t tell anyone to screw off. Public accommodation laws are still on the books and enforceable. SCOTUS just clarified that they bakers have to sell a cake they would normally sell to same sex couples. They can only refuse if it’s a special order cake, and not a cake off the shelf.
     
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  21. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Which they were already doing.
     
  22. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Nope. Some bakers won, and some lost, for the reasons I stated.
     
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  23. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    Fair enough I just don't think it needs licensing.
    No need for the licensure.

    Yeah I don't see how it's not the same.

    There obviously is not universal agreement on that on any side of that discussion, but that can be debated on another thread more suitable for that purpose.

    I don't guess I understand the value in denying that to same sex couples.
     
  24. Polydectes

    Polydectes Banned

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    I don't support forcing any business to serve any customer.
     
  25. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Trump's fans are finding new and interesting ways to avoid what is happening in our country. They wish to avoid the issues that are dominating the news.

    That clearly is a sign of weakness where their political views are concerned.
     
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