One basic fact is undeniable by the "pro-lifers"....if they got their wish and

abortion was made illegal?

It would only effect the poor.

Middle class women, obvioiusly rich women, would easily travel to foreign countries (even Canada). Or "speakeasy" "spas" would be established, charging high rates here in the USA. RU-486 would be expensive, but no more difficult to obtain than marijuana...maybe less so.

But aside from denying access to the poor....and "patting themselves on the back for how 'moral' America was".....that's it.

 

This, more or less, is true.

1) The foremost reason for abortions is because the woman does not feel that she has sufficient resources behind her to sustain pregnancy. The costs of Prenatal Care, delivery, and the loss of wages due to maternity leave. Poor women are effected the most by this.
2) Regardless of if it would be made illegal or not, abortions would happen. Instead of them being in a doctor's office, they would happen in a back alley.
3) While one can argue that there is a moral issue with abortion, it does not meet the legal qualifications of law. Law is about maintaining ORDER. Order is lost when there is a fear that somebody can afflict you negatively. Example being in Murder (in the legal sense)... If somebody kills you, it shows that they are not only capable of doing so, but they have a willingness to do so. Without LAW to go after them and remove them from society, there is a FEAR (which detracts from ORDER) that this may happen again, and to them personally. Abortion does not have this issue, because anybody that can Exhibit this FEAR, is already born.

If 'pro-lifers' want to protect the unborn, there are non-profits out there that are dedicated to supporting women who are disadvantaged, in carrying their pregnancy to term. No other option comes close to the effect on curbing abortion rates that this would have, and NO OPTION will ever bat a thousand on this issue. Some Abortions will simply happen no matter if there was relief available or a law prohibiting it. That cannot be changed.

 

All we can say for sure is that female babies are the most likely to be aborted. Congress is ensuring that this remains the case.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-acti...enalizing-doctors-for-sex-selection-abortions

 

if they got their wish, next they would go after birth control

 

Most modern women promote birth control.

(*** DISCLAIMER: I don't know if I'm allowed to talk on the subject because I'm a man, but this is a 'political chat' group, so let me throw caution into the wind. If you wish to ignore this disclaimer, please proceed onward with this post.***)

I notice that you don't mention the FACT that most abortions worldwide are gender specific. They target women. The facts are undeniable that most cultures worldwide want a male heir. In America, we just managed to strike down any limitations to this abortion. Long live the holocaust of women.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/01/us/politics/house-rejects-bill-to-ban-sex-selective-abortions.html
Please don't drag the conversation down this dark alley...



(As a personal note, I like women, so I don't favor abortions.)

 

I hate that concept, "You are a man, so you cannot talk about a woman's issue." It's a Liberty issue, and any slight away from the defense of Liberty invites Authoritarianism to push ever harder.

 

I favor democracy. It is the only civil means of resolving political disputes.

Next to democracy, I favor freedom.

That means I favor freedom of choice for whatever religion you want to attend and whatever you want to do regarding your own body. If you don't want to carry a child to term, you should be able to have the fetus removed. If the fetus can survive outside of the womb, it ought to be given a chance at life, cared for by the state, and put up for adoption, same as we generally do for stray pets.

The Founding Freemasons who wrote the U.S. Constitution did not get around to covering female health issues however. So the U.S. Supreme Court took it upon themselves to legislate an amendment to the Constitution by themselves. For now it stands as a precedent, with the full power of law. If it is ever going to be changed, it should only be changed through democracy.

This issue should not keep creeping up every year however, with the GOP using it as kool aid to surrepticiously promote their tax cuts for the rich and oil drilling everywhere that the eye can see.

 

So, in MA, we got Tierney. (Wife's in prison for money laundering, no bigey! As long as those bastards didn't win.)


Try not to let you shake your faith in democracy...
http://hamilton-wenham.patch.com/articles/will-tierneys-familys-legal-problems-impact-your-vote-poll

 

I suppose that's quite ironic. Out of any class of women, the financially secure should have more obligation than anyone else to keep their baby.

You know, there is also legislation to punish American citizens if they go to another country and hire a prostitute under the age of 18. I don't know why the same couldn't be done with abortion, at least the elective late-term ones.

 

Are you going to have ultrasound scanners run by the TSA at every airport? Making sure some pregnant woman isn't "sneaking out of the country to kill her baby"?

Oh, and you'll have to check EVERY woman of child-bearing years, won't you? Even if they don't "look pregnant"?.....and what about at the border to Canada?

How big a Womb Police are we going to need?

 

Womb Police...I don't know why but that made me laugh my ass off. I can just imagine a Reno 911-like group of police people running around pulling up the skirts of women on the streets and checking their 'wombs'.

 

Seriously? If you can get an ardent "pro-lifer" to stick around for some interrogative questions....that's one of ONLY TWO possibilities open to them. Either it's

A. "Okay, it's not REALLY 'murder'. I'm not looking for a massive police state to make sure that women aren't 'secretly killing their babies' and sentence them to execution. It's 'something less' than 'murder'...and I don't really want to make it illegal."

OR

B. "Yes, I want a police state. With ultrasound scans at every border crossing, every airport, every port of entry. And a Womb Cop standing by at every doctor's visit by a woman of childbearing years...to assure that the doctor doesn't kill a baby. Also a massive increase in the DEA or an abandonment of their quests against marijuana and cocaine...so they can go after RU-486. Oh, and naturally, if a woman self-induces...she must be tried and executed for murder."

Either they're LYING about their "Abortion is MURDER" harsh rhetoric....or they are "Fetal Fascists". There is no third option.

 

Seriously? Do people really believe this BS?

94.7% of all abortions occur before the end of the 15th week of pregnancy and the gender of the preborn can't be determined until after the 18th week.

http://www.womenscenter.com/abortion_stats.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_6854830_determine-gender-baby.html

 

sike..... thats not a good enough argument to justify the killing of a pure innocent human. try again next time.

 

Which category do you fall into, RTL?

Do you think abortion "isn't really 'murder'...it's something less than that" and you don't want it made illegal....

or do you think it IS "murder" and want womb police and women who take RU-486 to be executed?

 

I'll take this option

Abortion IS murder period. May we as a country one day be able to look back with shame that we allowed the size, or level of development, or dependency, or environment of a human person ...or fear or convenience...serve as a reason to treat children in the womb as less worthy of human dignity: reasons just as arbitrary as the color of someone's skin.

 

I'll take this option

Abortion IS murder period. May we as a country one day be able to look back with shame that we allowed the size, or level of development, or dependency, or environment of a human person ...or fear or convenience...serve as a reason to treat children in the womb as less worthy of human dignity: reasons just as arbitrary as the color of someone's skin.

And let me ask YOU something. Do you believe the constitution should be amended and take out the "right to life" ? since you believe many Americans dont have the right to live just because they are very young and developing. How do you think Abraham Lincoln would feel about abortion?

 

Not done yet.....and what PUNISHMENT do you support for people who commit deliberate, pre-meditated murder?

 

yes because thats exactly what it is?

to be fair however i believe all women should be paid for their 9 months pregnant and for giving birth. That's very fair.

 

okay, for the guy that said it would effect mainly girl babies, reread your article, it mentions nothing of the sort.
as for the gender selective argument in general, we've already established this, it's very hard to discern the reasons for an abortion. allowing that to come into play means that anyone can claim the woman is getting an abortion based on the gender and try to get an injunction to force her to carry and give birth to that child.
now, for abortion in general, i find it ironic that the republicans are so adamantly opposed to abortion AND welfare because single mothers are the #1 highest welfare recipients. if they got an abortion, they could have pursued a more stable financial future and had a child in the future, when that child wouldn't grow up in the projects. now i know what you just thought, "well the dad will either pay child support or stay married to her!" but no. my mother was married to a man who got her pregnant at the age of sixteen. she gave birth to my stepbrother, and the man left. he has successfully avoided paying child support for 18 years by making sure to get paid in cash, never have the payment recorded, and avoid throwing his name out there. she had to go on welfare. she's one of the few GOOD stories for that, and that's because she happened to know a pretty well off man who happened to love her. most stories don't end that way. so you can think abortion is murder, i call it early intervention to a life of misery.

 

You didn't answer my question. Let me clarify. What legal punishment should a person tried and convicted of deliberate, pre-meditated murder receive?

 

YES BECAUSE THATS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS!

They should be punished with no less than 10 years in prison.

 

10 years in prison for pre-meditated, deliberate murder?!?!?!? So we should free Manson, huh?


See, here's where what I said above gets proven. Even if you were a "pure" "pro-lifer"...a Catholic who opposes the death penalty....in OTHER circumstances, you would HAVE to agree to atleast LIFE in prison for someone who commits pre-meditated murder. So now you're stuck....

You HAVE to support ATLEAST life in prison ...for a woman who takes RU-486 and deliberately and with pre-meditation....induces an abortion. And that puts you sooooooooooooo far out of the mainstream of America...even out of the mainstream of some of those who don't like abortion.....that you look crazy.

Then we're onto the "Womb Police"....how do you ENFORCE such a law? Except for poor women, who can't travel to Canada or afford a "private spa"? You can't....unless you call for a "Gestapo" police state that will ultrasound women at airports and have an "agent" standing by in every OB-GYN office to oversee all examinations.

And you're left with two choices (if you're as radical as that)....admit your failure to actually "ban abortion" EXCEPT for poor women, which means nothing but feeling self-righteous and talking about how "moral America is now", but clearly showing that you DO support abortion...for those who can afford it....

or you call for an authoritarian Big Brother state.

 

1. I'm not catholic

2. My view on abortion isn't related to my religion.... It's a human rights issue like slavery and civil rights....everyone has the right to live as stated in the constitution. or do you believe that the "right to life" should be taken out of the constitution? (please stop dodging that one)

3. I'm for JUSTICE. If you do NOTHING WRONG, you shouldnt be killed. If you commit an evil crime. you should face death. Pro murder people always try to link the death penalty with abortion the two have nothing in common.

I believe people who commit pre-meditated murder.... weather through abortion or other means....should receive the punishment FOR premeditated murder... which would be the laws designated by each state. Weather thats 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, life, etc.

Also no, no one should be allowed to have abortions in America period.

So let me guess this.... you were for slavery right?? Youre saying the same things democrats said in the 1850's and 60's - "they aren't human; they are not of equal worth."

"How can someone from the north (or in this case, men) tell us southerners (or in this case women) what we can and cant do on our farm?(or in this case "their bodies")

or something like..... "if you take away slavery (or in this case, a woman's right to kill the unborn) it will ruin our economy and we will be poor (or in this case, women being troubled by the cost of a baby....on a side note; its funny how pro murder people never heard of the word adoption before either)

The faces change, but the game remains the same.... when all is said and done which side will you stand on? and will you be proud that that you allowed the size, or level of development, or dependency, or environment of a human person ...or fear or convenience...serve as a reason to treat children in the womb as less worthy of human dignity: reasons just as arbitrary as the color of someone's skin.

 

The law has nothing to do with Right or wrong, it is about maintaining order. Murder (in the legal sense) has nothing to do with Abortion. The reason why if you kill me, it is a crime, and if you abort a pregnancy - it is not... Because the threat that you represent to society incites a fear that disrupts that order. If you are not only capable, but willing to take the life of another person, it's reasonable to fear that you can always do the same to somebody else. Thus by imprisoning or executing murderers, you remove the fear that disrupts the order. Abortion does not meet this qualification because anybody who can be part of this disruption of order, is already born.

That aside, the fact that the pro-life movement is fixated on the trigger, and not the cause of the issue baffles me. Making Abortion Illegal will not prevent abortions. It will simply move the operation out of the doctor's offices and into the back alleys. As long as there is a demand for a product or service, there will be a supply. This is evident in our history by the examples of Prohibition and the War on Drugs. How this relates to Abortion is that it does not address the underline issues. The issue at it's core is that there is some women who do not wish to carry their pregnancy to gestation. The motivating factors for this need to be addressed, not the methods they use. The current argument of Making Abortion illegal to get ensure that pregnancies reach gestation is like banning guns to make sure nobody is ever murdered. Just because they are banned, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be accessible or other means would not be procured.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_help-for-low-income-pregnant-women-and-families_10320594.bc

There are support programs, both Gov Funded and NPO that provide economic support and support groups to women to address concerns that otherwise would be a factor in choosing abortion. If you want to see babies born that would otherwise be aborted, this is your best bet and deserve your support... Because banning abortion would hardly make a dent in the issue, while confronting the underline concerns that surround the situations that lead to the choice of abortion have the greatest effect. There will always be somebody who 'can't be inconvenienced' by pregnancy and will have an abortion. This will not change if Abortion is legal or not. And no possible plan will ever bat a thousand.