Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

ancient-israel-in-egypt-and-the-exodus.pdf (biblicalarchaeology.org) read up y'all

 

Very interesting read so far brother Todd! I still got a bit more to read, thanks for your contribution!

 

I didn't make myself, my life, or the heavens or the earth onto and under which I was born. Yet here I am in the midst. It is a miracle, clearly not of my hand. So to deny the hand of God and the miracle of life is to deny reality. It is to play dumb so as to appear knowledgeable and glory in stupidity. I tell you, I stand on the earth, look up at the heavens and breathe. But it isn't of my doing. So I give thanks to the God of my making, and wait. Who am I to be so adorned with the privilege of living on the same earth as the greatest and least who've ever lived. Yet I do, and it isn't of my doing. I live as do Pharaohs, Kings, the holy and impoverished. Gratefulness doesn't require nobility or advanced degrees to stir in ones soul.

 

Brilliant...well said brother Injeun! Thanks for your contributions!

 

You're welcome. And thanks back brother Mitt Ryan.

 

Considering none of these ever existed - what a load of tripe. And the Bible clearly says that Israel were in Egypt 430 years.Perhaps your esteemed writer should actually read the Bible and study what it says. It doesn't say anything about 200 years this and 200 years that. It clearly states Israel were in Egypt 430 years. Your contact clearly can't read.

The ideas you have given cannot be right. The solutions you give attempt to harmonize the genealogical data with the tradition that Israel was in Egypt for four hundred and thirty years by including the patriarchal period in the count. If you read it , however, Exod 12:40 speaks of the children of Israel who dwelled in (repeat in) Egypt (not Canaan), so this solution is not acceptable. Furthermore, before Jacob had children, an 'entity' called the “children of Israel” did not exist, so that the reckoning of the children of Israel’s stay in Egypt can only commence from when Jacob’s children migrated there.

On top of that Matthew only uses 3 generations from Judah to Moses. If they were in Egypt 430 years as the Bible says, what happened to the other 10? generations.

Thanks for your post. .

 

I repeat for your perusal.

The solutions you offer attempt to harmonize the genealogical data with the tradition that Israel was in Egypt for four hundred and thirty years by including the patriarchal period in the count. Taken on its own terms, however, Exod 12:40 speaks of the children of Israel who dwelled in Egypt (not Canaan), so this solution is not acceptable. Furthermore, before Jacob had children, an entity called the “children of Israel” did not exist, so that the reckoning of the children of Israel’s stay in Egypt can by definition only commence from when Jacob’s children migrated there.

Matthews genealogy has only two generations between Judah and Aram - Moses father. If Israel were in Egypt 430 years what happened to around 8 generations given your 44 years per generation.

 

And FWIW, given the life spans were much less then, the generation interval would be less than 25 years not 44 years, and according to Matthew's genealogy Jacob was therefore born about 1000 BC.

 

Sorry trev but you've made a mistake, Aram was not the father of Moses because the father of Moses was Amram.

Furthermore as we note in Matthews genealogy, Moses and his father Amram are not in the lineage of Lord Jesus' ancestors.

And that 44 years per generation I calculated out it is just a rough estimate because it was not based on actual exact figures. If for example we knew exactly when Abraham was born or the numbers of years that elapsed between Abraham's date of birth and Jesus the Messiah's date of birth then it would be very easy to determine the generation avg. of years between the 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus the Messiah. But as it is that figure I gave you those 44 years is close enough or feasible but again it's not exact.

Ok thanks trev for your post.

 

Aram, Amram, Ram. It depends on which version of the Bible you read. I have several and they all vary. Amram is from the line of Levi while Ram and Abinadab come from the line of Judah - both Sons of Israel (Jacob)
And most of us know that Matthews genealogy is simply wrong.
Matthew’s genealogy traces the ancestors of Joseph, the legal father of Jesus. The structure of the genealogy descends from father to son, beginning with Abraham. Additionally, Matthew divides the genealogy into three groups of fourteen generations, separated by important historic points (Matthew 1:17). Matthew abridged the genealogy by omitting some names that appear in earlier records. Some speculate that the abridged arrangement was intended to aid in memorization. Genealogical abridgement has lots of biblical precedent. GotQuestions..

 

No offense, but what difference does it make. The point is that God lives and he calls us to repentance in preparation of our review before his judgment bar. The adversary says this is not true or some variant in contradiction to Gods intent, as if this life is a pointless free for all. Which character is contradictory to civilization and our quest for justice. To quibble over generational math is like saying the hem of ones gown is misaligned. And therefore what message could such a one bring that is of any worth. The message is that God lives and calls us to repent.

If you don't care or believe it, that's fine. If you disbelieve all the prophets, Jesus and his Apostles, that's fine. If you say none of them lived and it's all made up, that's fine. But closer to home, I tell you that I live, and I know that God is real. And I know that repentance and baptism is in keeping with his divinity. And that it is not in keeping with the idea, image, or concept of God. But of the true and living God who has created all things and blessed us to live and experience it without his strict oversight, acquiescing to the sovereignty of our choice, with hope in our eventual return. So he sends prophets and holy men to remind us. He even comes as a man himself, Jesus in his stead, to do that which we can't, which is to overcome all things, and strike a path for our return. He says that if we forgive peoples trespasses and weaknesses, he will forgive ours. He is charitable and just. You can reject and disbelieve everything I've said, and that's fine. You can say that my hem is misaligned. But you can't say that I haven't delivered my message.

 

Holy Carp e -diem Robin .. NO - the point is not whether or not God Lives. Do you not understand "The Point" ?

"The point is that God lives and he calls us to repentance in preparation of our review before his judgment bar."

dxsdfds -- the point is that you have not the faintest idea what the Judgment bar is - had you been called to prepare .. Your claim to the contrary is "The Point" .. How any times have I asked you "what is the name of this God - and "what are the commands of this God" that we need to follow in order to be put right with this God .. meet that Judgement Bar ..

The Point -- is how can you prepare for a bar you know naught ? and this is like the 10th time I have told you this so why are you not getting it ? You have absolutely no idea what the commands of this God whose name you know naught are .. how can you then meet that judgement Bar ? That is the Adversary .. it is you who is the Adversary .. pretending to know where the Judgement bar is ... telling others to follow .. but this is not the Judgement bar at all .. because you know naught the commands of this God who's name you know naught.

 

What's your evidence that the average biblical generation interval was 44 years, given that most people have long finished reproducing before they are 44 years old, and the average life span then was much less than today's? For example, the average generation interval from Queen Victoria to Prince George is 28 years, and similarly for my ancestry back to the 1500's. And the generation interval for the Gen 5 genealogy is about 10 years (ie 117 lunar cycles).

 

Abraham never existed to we will never know his date of birth. Jesus was born circa 6BCE.

You realise the 'children of Israel (Jacob) were only in Canaan for about 4-5 years before they went into Egypt - according to the mythical story. When Israel was old enough to marry he was sent to Laban - in a far north country. There he married Leah and 7 years later Rachel. While there he had 11 sons by various women. He was then - the story goes - told to go back to Bethel. Just before arriving in Bethel Rachel gave birth to Benjamin. About 4-5 years later Joseph was in Egypt and greeting his brothers and father. They then settled in Egypt. So they were hardly ever in Canaan. How do we know this. Because in the story and the interaction between Joseph and the brothers Benjamin is always called 'a boy' indicating his youth.
Think of all the action in those 4-5 years. It just indicates how ridiculous the story of Abraham to the Exodus is.

 

Why do you feign ignorance. Surely somewhere in the depths of your soul resides the realization that we have agreed to the plan of salvation before we were born. And that justice awaits. We all volunteered and signed up for it. It's only fearsome due to our sins in contradiction to our original agreement with him. But he has promised forgiveness if we practice forgiveness. Mercy for mercy, and charity for charity. If God is beholden to us, then what is our part? Ought we not to be beholden to him? Shouldn't we write it in our hearts his goodness to us, and wait upon him, as he has stretched the heavens and made us in the midst and waited upon us. After all, nothing could be without him.

All the while he tells us to do good. And all the while the adversary leads us to sin and says there will be no consequence. So we go from sin to sin to sin, ever increasing until the end and we are seized by the adversary of our souls. But if we remain true to God, the adversary will break his teeth on us. Corruption is delicious to Satan. But it stands to reason that he can't abide the stone.

Jesus Christ is our advocate. He alone is our surety. He has overcome it all, and is our Fathers charity, our failsafe. In the great council in heaven before creation, the plan of salvation was proposed and the need for a savior. Lucifer volunteered, saying he would save everyone, and only asked for the glory and honor due. Then Jesus volunteered, saying to the Father, not my will be done, but thine, and the honor and glory be thine. Jesus was chosen. Lucifer was wroth. He drew a third of the hosts to follow him in rebellion. And they did not prevail.

And so, since the beginning, it was known of a savior to come. So it was handed from generation to generation and waited upon like a brooding hen. When the time came that Jesus Christ was born, a new light appeared in the sky as a sign. This light is what the three "wise men" followed to his birth place.

It was all foreordained. My point in all this is that we shouldn't quibble over real or perceived irregularities in scripture, as that distracts from the over arching high points, which is that God lives. So it is to him that we owe thanks for all the good that is, that was, and is to come. It is better to trust in God and to hope than to dwindle in unbelief and sink in despair.

I can say with confidence and am reconciled to the fact that God lives. I could not and would not say this were it not that his spirit awakened me to a remembrance of him, to know he lives. So I add my testimony to the many in scriptures, that they are true.

 

An interesting story. Unfortunately Jesus was simply a Jewish preacher put to death for upsetting the Religious heirarchy. Like Mitt you simply look at the Bible and believe neglecting the background story, customs and rules of the day which deny the contradictory Nativity stories.

 

What is this ridiculous deflection and strawman fallacy. Running from the teachings of Jesus while crying out " Jesus Christ is our advocate" and making claims about Judgement .. as if you know the criteria on which Judgement is based ... but you do not have the faintest idea what the criteria is .. as given by My Advocate .. Jesus Christ .. the man whose spirit you blaspheme .

Tell us .. "Why do you feign ignorance. Surely somewhere in the depths of your soul resides the realization that we have agreed to the plan of salvation before we were born" ...... but you have since forgotten the Path .. forgotten the Plan .. obviously .. otherwise you would be able to tell us the criteria by which Salvation is achieved .. or as Jesus says .. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven ....

OK .. GOT IT .. Only the one that does the will of the Father of Jesus who is in Heaven - If this is the plan you agreed to before birth .. why do you now feign ignorance of this Plan .. and refuse to tell us what "The will of the Father" is ?

Sup with that Injun ? Holding out .. on the plan .. because you don't understand what that plan is .. nor do you know where that plan comes from .. nor the Name of the Father you profess to serve. As per your testimony about scripture .. scripture you do not know up from down nor outside out .. what is such testimony worth ?

What is true Injun .. you say your testimony is truth .. great ! I have been asking for you to tell us this truth 10 times over . What is the Will of the Father .. as per scripture .. 1) Will you kill the child for the sin of Idolatrous parents .. or ..2) will you decree that children are not to be killed for the Sin of the Father - each is to be punished according to his own sin.

" So I add my testimony to the many in scriptures, that they are true" .. he boldly cries

That's great friend then tell us the will of the Father as per the scripture you have testified is true. 1 .. or 2 ?

 

Look no one can give an accurate precise figure, that figure 44 years for all practical purposes is as I've said previously close enough to be feasible. And let's not forget Mitty, Abraham lived for 175 years, He was 100 years old when his son Isaac was born and so during Abraham's time people lived long lives much longer than we do today.

We Read in Scripture:

5 Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. Genesis 21:5 NLT

7 Abraham lived for 175 years, 8 and he died at a ripe old age, having lived a long and satisfying life. He breathed his last and joined his ancestors in death. Genesis 25:7-8 NLT

Below is what Brett speculates as to when Abraham was born.

Then below is what Lilian speculates as to when Abraham was born.

So I just gave you two examples of speculations and believe me there are many more out there and so the point being no one can precisely give us an accurate date as to when Abraham was born but the example from Brett is closely aligned to what I speculated. After doing the math using Brett's figure it comes out 43.14 years as the avg. of years a generation is as it pertains Matthew's genealogy of the 42 generations from Abraham to Jesus the Messiah.

Ok thanks Mitty for your post.

 

Nonsense. That's just pure fantasy. The average lifespan then was probably not much more than 44 years, let alone the average generation time, given that the average generation time in the Genesis 5 genealogy is about 10 years (ie 117 lunar cycles). And Genesis 5:1-3 says that the Adams was about 11 years old when they first became pregnant.

 

Many of the numbers for lifespans are not to be taken seriously .. simple translation issues being the most obvious cause rather than later redactors making things up... although some of that did go on. Regardless .. as is speculated above the likely date for Honest Abe is ~1800-2000BC .. on this almost all scholars agree.

But so what ? --- what is the "Tough Question" that is going to send the author of the OP running for the hills ?

Noah's ark makes land 300 years prior to Abe .. the date of the Flood is then 2100-2300 BC .. which of course is preposterous ridiculous nonsense .. as we have continuous culture/civilization throughout that time period .. in not just one but many places throughout the Globe.

Tough luck on that one Mitt .. but thanks for your post

 

For goodness sake noone with any sense believes that the world was created per Jewish belief. The genealogy in Matthew is simply made up from what he had been taught as a child. He had been taught to read and write and study the Tanakh from the age of 5 through to 13 at school in a synagogue. All Jewish children were. He really believed in the Pentatuech after 8 years of indoctrination. Just as many Christian believe what the church has taught for 2000 years. He had no way of knowing the stories were made up. The stories had been taught for nearly 700 years and become established as 'the truth'. Christianity/Islam and other religions/sects do the same. Just believe - don't question. It's quite clear with modern knowledge of ancient history etc. that these are just stories made up for a purpose - to give Israel an origin.

 

Nothing substantive here but just the same old blathering unbiblical talking points by you. FYI Christianity in no way shape or form made the father of all lies satan an enemy of God. The devil satan did it himself by rebelling against God and so God casted and pushed him out of heaven along with other rebellious angels. satan’s fall from heaven must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted our first parents Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether his fall occurred hours, days, or years before he tempted our first parents Adam and Eve in the Garden, Scripture does not say.

Now I would like to present a video from my favorite Christian Ministry, a Ministry that you and I along with many others admire and respect a whole lot trev. In this video they will answer the question, "How, why, and when did satan fall from heaven?" from a Biblical perspective.



Ok thanks trev for your post, I hope you learned something today after viewing this video from my favorite Christian Ministry. satan desired to be God not a servant of God, he wanted to kick God off His throne and take over the rule of the universe and so satan by his own doing became an enemy of God.

 

Lol...sorry gift my boy for laughing out loud.

So your speculation/opinion/guesswork claims the date of the Great Flood of Noah is sometime between 2300 through 2100 BC but that right there indicates it's not a precise it's not an accurate date. I've heard some claim that the Flood occurred around 2348 BC which is just slightly off from your 2300 BC date and of course I've heard other dates too. It just goes to show the reality is no one can be certain no one can be sure when it occurred.

These speculative/opinionated dates are derived from the genealogies of Genesis.

Some scholars believe that the genealogies are not intended, and were never understood by the original audience, to be thorough to be including all possibilities, IOW it could be that generations were skipped and so if this is the case in the Genesis 5 genealogy and there are years unaccounted for, then gift my boy we really have no idea when the Great Flood of Noah took place, it's simply just a guessing game to say this is when the Great Flood occurred. I mean it's really a guessing game now as it is but imagine the possibility of skipped generations...aye ya ya!

With all said, we really can't make any affirmative statements like the one you've made gift saying "we have continuous culture/civilization throughout the time period ......"
All we can say is that of course prior to the Great Flood of Noah there were cultures/civilizations throughout the world but they were all obliterated/demolished/ended when the Great Flood came and resulted in only Noah and his seven other family members along with pairs of animals surviving this Great Flood.

Sorry gift but the only one that's going to be running for the hills is you so you can hide under that rock where you hide out most of the time...lol

The bottom line is that the actual year of the Great Flood of Noah is less important than the meaning of the Great Flood, which is that God punishes sin but also provides a way of salvation.

Ok thanks Gift for your post.

 

You obviously know nothing about Judaism from which Christianity emerged.

Torah

Satan, or more properly, HaSatan is an angel who resides in the heavenly realm. HaSatan means the accuser or the adversary. The term Satan or HaSatan is used in three different contexts within the Tanach.

First, as an enemy in war as seen in I Kings 5:18: But now יהוה my God has given me peace on all sides, without opponents (שָׂטָן) or problems. Torah

Second, as an accuser before the seat of judgment as seen in Psalm 109:6: Set a wicked man over him, and let an accuser (וְשָׂטָן) stand at his right side.3

Third, as an adversary in the general sense of the term as seen in II Samuel 19:23: But David said, “Is this your business, sons of Tzeruyah, that you should oppose (לְשָׂטָן) me today? Should any Yisraelite be put to death? I certainly know that today I am [again] king over Yisrael!”2

As a proper character, Satan appears only once in the Tanach – in the Book of Job. He is depicted as an angel who mocks the piety of the righteous Job.4

Job 1:6: One day, the angels presented themselves before God, and Satan (הַשָּׂטָן) also came with them.3

From the dialogue in the opening chapter of the Book of Job we see that HaSatan is a member of the angelic hosts of the abode of God and has no independent power.

Job 1:7, 12: God said to Satan (הַשָּׂטָן), “Where are you coming from?” Satan (הַשָּׂטָן) answered God, “From going roaming the earth and traversing it.” … God said to Satan (הַשָּׂטָן), “Here, you have control over everything he owns; only do not extend your hand against him personally.” So Satan (הַשָּׂטָן) went out from the presence of God.3

From this exchange we see that HaSatan is an angel who watches over the activities of humanity, searching for mankind’s sins and then appearing as their accuser to God. HaSatan is not considered an opponent to God as Christianity teaches. Monotheistic teachings are no more disturbed by the existence of HaSatan than by the presence of other beings that go before God. This view is shown in Zechariah 3:1-2 where HaSatan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua.

Christianity teaches that Satan was once an angel in the heavenly realm but through his rebellion, he became a fallen angel.

The authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church regarding Satan was set forth in the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council which reads in part: “…the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature but they by themselves have made themselves evil.”5

As a proof text from the Tanach, Christianity uses Isaiah 14:12 to prove their stand regarding Satan. Christianity argues “that Isaiah’s mention of the fallen ‘morning star’ refers to Satan’s ultimate demise at the end of time when Satan will finally be cast into a lake of fire as articulated in the twentieth chapter of the Book of Revelation.” However, if you read the fourteenth chapter (verse four) of Isaiah it will quickly become apparent that the “morning star” is referring to Nebuchadnezzar.

In Isaiah 14:12 “Nebuchadnezzar is compared to the planet Venus whose light is still visible in the morning yet vanishes with the rise of the sun. … Like the light of Venus, Nebuchadnezzar’s reign shone brilliantly for a short time, yet, as the prophets foretold, was eventually overshadowed by the nation of Israel whose light endured and outlived this arrogant nation who tormented and exiled her.”

Judaism firmly believes that HaSatan is nothing more than an accusing angel that resides in the heavenly court. HaSatan is not a fallen angel and is not evil incarnate.

Perhaps you'll learn someday what the Bible really says.

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