Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Oct 27, 2021.
The God who gave us our eyes to see and our ears to hear.
So, it's perfectly OK, in your book, to sentence someone to infinite punishment for a finite crime? A THOUGHT crime at that.
That is "moral" in your thinking?
Because, to me, that is about the most IMMORAL thing I can think of.
Matthew 15:21-28. (v 24. 26-27) clearly he is calling the gentiles 'dogs'. The woman was a Gentile of Canaan - not Cana of Galilee. Canaan was the coastal area of Tyre and Sidon where it is believed the tribe of Israel originally came from before settling in Judea.
I don't question Gods judgment. But it seems to me that a Father who gives us life and who then dies for our retrieval is hardly engaged in a villainous form of entrapment. Otherwise why die or send Prophets and so forth. It also occurs to me that this isn't Gods first rodeo. He has probably heard every excuse from every person in every world he has ever created in eternity. And I suspect that the number of worlds and people is unfathomable to us.
Lucifer is not mentioned in the OT at all. The LXX mistranslated the Hebrew Isaiah 14:12 into Greek. When Jerome was commisioned to translate the Bible into Latin in the 4th century CE from the Greek he used the LXX mistranslation instead of translating the Hebrew word correctly. So the Latin Vulgate Bible - used by the Church for many centuries, contained a misinterpretation. It is now realised that the reference was to a boastful king who claimed he was the greatest. He wasn't.
And here is the problem with religion in the first place "I don't question God's judgement". Why give man the ability to reason if you are just supposed to turn it off when it comes to questions like this?
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson
Why set up the punishment that required sacrificing his son (not that it was any kind of real sacrifice, Jesus died Friday afternoon and was alive again very early Sunday morning, 39 hours, tops.) in the first place?
Why die? Why set up the situation that required the death in the first place?
Israel had Gods law, deviated from it and were lost. The gentiles didn't have Gods law. The woman only wanted her Daughters life restored, not salvation. And as you know, Jesus came to finish out the Judaic law.
Like I said, I don't question Gods judgment. Salvation must begin to then progress with trust in God. That's how Noah built the ark. He began and waited on God for direction. He didn't question where the final dowel would be driven before breaking a sweat to begin the task.
From a ditchdigger to a boastful King, Lucifers spirit, like Gods spirit, can dwell there.
What's that got to do with it? Jesus referred to the Gentiles as dogs. If you believe the story anyway.
From a ditchdigger to a boastful King, Lucifers spirit, like Gods spirit, can dwell there
'Lucifers' spirit? The Jews believed that HaSatan (The Satan) was a messenger created by Jahweh to test mens faith - not a fallen angel. Matthews fancifal temptation story (to which no-one was witness) was simply Jesus faith being tested according to Jewish belief. Christianity turned HaSatan into an enemy of God by misrepresenting the story. As with the Baptism of Jesus - which again was a Jewish practise. The dove was a fanciful creation to misrepresent the simple act of cleansing.
Noah, in all likelihood, did not exist. We do know there was no world wide flood.
But you do exist and miss the point. Point being that when you were born, you had no idea that you would be here this day doing what you are doing. But it didn't stop you from proceeding with faith and hope, and winding up here. Salvation is similar in that you must be reborn of spirit and water, and begin with faith, hope and trust. But you refuse to begin because you have nothing but doubt and no cause. Cause must begin with a willingness or receptiveness towards inspiration. Without that, you damn yourself. It is like a hunger strike. It can't be proved that to eat is good for you if you don't eat. Yes there are tons of falsehoods in the world. But that is to each of us to wade through to find that which is right and good and wholesome and true.
Let me inform you Gawd that 2 Esdras is an apocalyptic work and is considered pseudepigraphal.
The pseudepigrapha are the books that attempt to imitate Scripture but that were written under false names. The term pseudepigrapha comes from the Greek pseudo, meaning “false,” and epigraphein, meaning “to inscribe,” thus, “to write falsely.” The pseudepigraphical books were written anywhere from 200 BC to AD 300. They are spurious works written by unknown authors who attempted to gain a readership by tacking on the name of a famous biblical character. Obviously, a book called the “Testament of Abraham” has a better chance of being read than the “Counterfeit Testament of an Unknown Author.”
While the pseudepigrapha may be of interest to students of history and ancient religious thought, they are not inspired by God and therefore not part of the canon of Scripture. Reasons to reject the pseudepigrapha are 1) they were written under false names. Any pretense or falsehood in a book naturally negates its claim of truthfulness. 2) They contain anachronisms and historical errors. For example, in the Apocalypse of Baruch, the fall of Jerusalem occurs “in the 25th year of Jeconiah, king of Judah.” The problem is that Jeconiah was 18 years old when he began to reign, and he only reigned 3 months [2 Kings 24:8]. There is no way to reconcile the “25th year” statement with the biblical account. 3) They contain outright heresy. In the pseudepigraphal Acts of John, for example, Jesus is presented as a spirit or phantasm who left no footprints when He walked, who could not be touched, and who did not really die on the cross.
The apostle Paul had to deal with pseudepigrapha written in his own day. Addressing the Thessalonian church, Paul says not to be alarmed by a “letter supposed to have come from us” [2 Thessalonians 2:2]. Obviously, someone had tried to mislead the believers with a forged letter imitating Paul’s style. Paul was forced to take precautions: “I, Paul, write this greeting in my own hand, which is the distinguishing mark in all my letters. This is how I write” [2 Thessalonians 3:17; see also 1 Corinthians 16:21; Galatians 6:11; and Colossians 4:18].
There are many books that fall under the category of pseudepigrapha, including the Testament of Hezekiah, the Vision of Isaiah, the Books of Enoch, the Secrets of Enoch, the Book of Noah, the Apocalypse of Baruch (Baruch was Jeremiah’s scribe according to Jeremiah 36:4), the Rest of the Words of Baruch, the Psalter of Solomon, the Odes of Solomon, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Testament of Adam, the Testament of Abraham, the Testament of Job, the Apocalypse of Ezra, the Prayer of Joseph, Elijah the Prophet, Zechariah the Prophet, Zechariah: Father of John, the Itinerary of Paul, the Acts of Paul, the Apocalypse of Paul, the Itinerary of Peter, the Itinerary of Thomas, the Gospel According to Thomas, the History of James, the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Epistles of Barnabas.
Ok thanks Gawd for your post, I hope you now understand after reading this thorough explanation given by my favorite Christian Ministry that 2 Esdras is essentially pseudepigraphal (false writings), they are not inspired by God and therefore not part of the canon of Scripture.
The pseudepigrapha are the books that attempt to imitate Scripture but that were written under false names. They contain anachronisms and historical errors, and they contain outright heresy. And please note besides 2 Esdras there are many other books that fall under the category of pseudepigraphia as listed above. Again, these books are not inspired by God and so they are false writings.
It can be proved that eating is good for you. We can observe what happens to those that don't eat. We have an understanding of how the body uses food to sustain us. We know which foods are good for us, which foods are bad for us...and what substances will kill us.
And ALL of that has been discovered through the scientific method. We weren't told any of this through divine inspiration. It didn't take a "god" to tell us we need to eat. What we should eat and what we should avoid. There is no faith involved in this process.
True, but only to the extent of what He has revealed to us. Let's not forget all Scripture is inspired by God. And so what we know of what He thinks is only because He has revealed it to us to make it known to us.
We Read in Scripture:
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 NLT
20 Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, 21 or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. 2 Peter 1:20-21 NLT
Ok thanks Gawd for your post.
Let us PROVE that scripture is "inspired by God" before we claim it as a fact.
But all the proof in the world isn't proof to you if you don't eat. It is no more than an offering and presentation. To believe and eat requires a measure of faith and trust. Only after that will you know.
You are rejecting God's eternal punishment strictly on emotional grounds. To you and many other atheists, eternal punishment just doesn't seem fair which in a human perspective is understandable. You ponder, how could a loving just God punish someone forever who has only rebelled a brief period on earth?
There are a few things to be said in response to this. First, how could a loving just God eternally reward someone who has only served Him the limited span of an earthly existence? No one seems to have a problem with that! The Bible tells us that everyone has sinned and turned away from God, refusing to worship Him as God and instead worshipping false gods and doing evil things.
Scripture tells us not even one is righteous.
We Read in Scripture:
10 As the Scriptures say,
“No one is righteous—
not even one. Romans 3:10 NLT
What we all deserve is to be punished. If anything's unfair, it's that God allows anyone to be completely forgiven, through Jesus' death on the cross. That means we don't get what we deserve; it means we get forgiveness and eternal life, rather than judgment for our sins. That's kind of unfair, but in a good way! And the gift of forgiveness is available to ANYONE who will put their trust in Jesus and follow Him.
The Bible makes it abundantly clear that our loving just God has never been characterized as being delighted in the possibility of a single soul ending in hell. Scripture tells us the Lord isn't really being slow about His promise, as some people think, but He is being patient for your sake, He doesn't want anyone to be destroyed but wants everyone to repent.
We Read in Scripture:
9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 2 Peter 3:9 NLT
Hell was initially prepared for Satan and his angels and not humans.
We Read in Scripture:
41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[a] Matthew 25:41 NLT
a. 25:41 Greek his angels.
God has made every possible provision so that humanity might avoid eternal punishment. Who can fault the justice of God in the light of Christ's death?
Eternal separation from God is a matter of human determination. Paul defends the justice of God in imposing destruction upon rebellious men in his letter to the Romans:
We Read in Scripture:
22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. Romans 9:22-23 NLT
This means that temporal crimes will have eternal consequences in hell. It may seem unfair; it is no less fair than what God does for those of us who have accepted His free gift of forgiveness. While sinners who reject God temporally are punished eternally, saints who accept God and serve him temporally are offered eternal reward. Those of us who love God don't argue much that we shouldn't have eternal reward, but we are quick to flinch when we think about the possibility that those who reject God will have eternal torment as their punishment! If we are willing to accept the possibility of an eternal reward that does not seem equivalent to our temporal goodness, we need also to be ready to accept the truth of eternal punishment that seems to exceed our temporal badness!
With all said, now the present time is a good time for the non-believers to re-think what they are putting their faith in.
Ok thanks Nwolfe for your post.
The books of the Bible are hardly inspired by God. Mythical stories, ancient earlier adapted stories, a flood that is denied by hydrology recorded in the Bible, books that are attributed to authors who could not have written them, obvious made up nativity stories, dead rising and going into Jerusalem to be met by relatives, etc. etc.
This is about the most non sensical response I have ever seen.
It is tailored to your reasoning.
Nope. Care to try again?
Setting the world aside momentarily, from creation and the fall to Jesus Christs gospel of repentance and salvation, everything in the Bible is reasonable, sensible, practical, and applicable to the plight of mankind. It is even scientific, in that science is the seeking of immortality and eternal life or the quality of that endlessness. And I can attest to the truth myself that I know that God is real, that he lives and is divine. I also have twenty six years of not knowing under my belt. So I am not without comparison to speak for myself.
Almost nothing in the Bible is reasonable, sensible or practical. Almost nothing is applicable to the plight of mankind.
I have almost 40 years of being an atheist.
Separate names with a comma.