Paul, a false prophet?

You are repeating a translation - not proving that the text actually says that.

We have already discussed this one. It does not in any way say anything about a trinity, nor obviously prove it.

This is the KJV - even as is it cant't be taken as any trinity. And my translation below that.

Mat 3:16 And baptized, Iesous arose immediately from the water, and "horao" perceived/discerned to open "autos" within, the "ouranos" power/heaven, and discerned the "pneuma" vitalizing breath/spirit of God descending like a dove and "erchomai" entering into him,

Mat 3:17 and "horao" perceived/discerned a voice from/through the power/heaven, saying this one is a son of mine, a beloved one of whom I approve/I am pleased.

 

The translation says 'before Abraham was, I am'. The Bible says therefore, 'before Abraham was, I am'. I believe the Bible, not you.

Matt. 3:16-17 specifically identify the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I certainly don't trust 'your' translating abilities.

Quantrill

 

Translated wrong - the words are "YHVH" and "the Elohiym." No trinity or even two gods! Elohiym is used throughout the Bible to mean the Israeli people, or judges, etc.

Isa 40:2 Speak, ye priests, to the heart of Jerusalem; comfort her, for her iniquity is accomplished/pardoned, her sin is put away: for she has received of the Lord's hand double the amount of her sins.

Isa 40:3 A voice calleth in the desert/wilderness: turn thy path/course, YHVH makes straight a throughfare for the Elohiym.

Isa 40:4 Every valley is raised up, And every mountain and hill made low, And the crooked place hath become a plain, And the ridges to a level plain.

Isa 40:5 And revealed is the glory of YHVH, and behold it all (the) people together: for the command of YHVH pronounced it.

In this case the "Elohiym" are the chosen - Israel.

In 2 he says her iniquity is pardoned - the royal crier is telling them to turn and return - YHVH has lifted the valleys and flattened the hills making a straight, flat, throughfare for their return.

 

LOL! YOU are trusting translations - and ones I might add - which have been shown repeatedly - by Biblical Scholars - to have translation problems.

Which is why the Jews continue to tell you folks you are wrong!

 

No, its translated correctly. And both words are used of God. And these are used of the Messiah.

As is shown in Matt. 3:1-3.

Quantrill

 

Yes, I trust the tanslations. I don't trust your translation.

So what? One can study the Bible for the wrong reason and call themselves a 'biblical scholar'.

Are you an expert in the Hebrew and Greek languages? Or are you going to web sites to obtain your translation?

And, there are many Jews who are Christians. Many who know the Hebrew quite well. Alfred Edersheim was an expert in the Hebrew and a Christian, and a teacher of the Bible. What happened?

Quantrill

 

Like I said before - you are not actually giving rebuttal.

Elohiym is never used alone in the Bible to mean YHVH/God.

And Obviously it is used for angels, Israel, Judges, etc.

 

Yes I am. Elohim is used of God in the Bible. It is used for others also, but it is used of God. I have said this before.

Jehovah is also used of God.

When you compare Is. 40:3 with Matthew 3:3 you will see both Jehovah and Elohim are used to describe Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Both Jehovah and Elohim are in Is.40 to describe the Messiah.

Quantrill

 

I took Russian Studies. Russian is a Kryllic alphabet/language. I started studying Greek when I realized I could already read some of it - as it too is a Kryllic alphabet, etc. At that point my interest in religions led to my deciding to study the Hebrew.

I translate them myself - not going to "sites" for the info. I do however occasionally go to Hebrew sites to compare my translations for improvement.

I've got the Greek and Hebrew texts on my computer, and multiple translations, as well as my own translations, which is why I can post the verses so quickly.

But don't you already know this? Aren't you someone I debated with on MS?

 

If you translate themselves then you are either mistaken or purposefully translating them wrong.

The King James Bible, as with some other Bibles is an excellent translation. Those who translated it far execeed you in their credentials as experts in the Greek and Hebrew.

There are some translating errors, which are known. But these that you are presenting are not errors. They are just your distortion based upon your unbelief.

I don't know.

Quantrill

 

LOL! That is quite funny coming from you, as you obviously aren't translating, or looking up, anything - so you wouldn't know - would you!

 

I can look it up. And I do know. As I said, those who translated the Bible are far more and greater than you.

You simply use 'translation' as a weapon against Christianity. You forget the many experts in Hebrew and Greek that translated the Bible and set yourself up as an authority of some sorts, as if your sole translation is proof of something.

Quantrill

 

The book of John was written by a man. The man that wrote the book may not have even been John.

Meaning that he was before Abraham when read in context.

Clearly the father and son are separate. The same entity is equal with that entity.

X = X X is not greater than X it is the same as X

The second part is even more telling. Jesus is asking God to give him the Glory he had previously.

The pre-existence of Jesus is reinterated in John 8:58 where Jesus claims to exist before Abraham.

What is clear is that the God is greater than the Son and that these are two different entities.

 

Those that are doing the translating often have an agenda. That much is clear.

This is why when you read different Bibles you get different translations.

In many cases the translations are made so as to fit in with Dogma, especially with ambiguous passages or passages that are not agreeable.

This was even worse in the early days of the Bible. Things were added, interpolated, or omitted.

 

The book of John is the Word of God. Written by a man inspired by God.

Yes, Jesus Christ existed before Abraham and identified Himself with the I Am of God in Exodus.

The Father and Son are separte Persons but of the same essence, God.

No, the Father is greater than the Son. Both are God.

Quantrill

 

The agenda was to translate correctly the Word of God. If its a legitimate there is not going to be very much variance. And you can always go back to the Hebrew and Greek to check.

Quantrill

 

English is one of the worst languages on earth when it comes to translation. English has only a couple dialects. Most other languages have several. Words can have several different meanings, that are completely different depening on the context. Add in the fact that when the bible was first translated to England it was done so as a punishment to the Catholic Church and not a serious scholarly attempt, and the translation would be even worse.

 

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Perhaps some of it might be, perhaps not.

Not in any of the passages you have given did Jesus identify himself as the God of "I AM" in Exodus. You just have not providedn anything other than your opinion for this Quant.

I gave you lots of stuff on the meaning of "I AM" in the OT. It is not Gods name.

You can keep repeating your premise over and over again but this does not make it true.

If X = X then X can not be greater than X. Simple Logic.

Do you think that God is not smart enough to figure out this simple logic ?

Myself, I start with the basic premise that God is a smart fellow and so would not say illogical things.

 

All languages have their difficulty in translating. The translations are done to give the Bible to the people in their own language.

Which first translation are you talking about?

Quantrill

 

The book of John is the Word of God, all of it. As is the Bible.

Ex.3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was I am.

It is clear here that God would be known to Israel by 'I AM'. Jesus identified with that I AM. Not only did Jesus Christ exist before Abraham, but He is the I AM.

Thats because you don't know anything about God and don't believe the revelation God has given. You can believe your equation. I will believe the Word of God.

You will not be able to explain the Trinity in logical terms. We don't have the ability. God is One. But He is three persons. The three persons are distinct yet One God. Though the Father is greater than the Son, this does not affect the equality of all three being God.

Quantrill

 

Not really: Because there's only one god the son cannot be less or greater than the father. They are the same together with the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost). And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another - says the athanasian creed. I don't think it's important in this context - but it may help to clear your thoughts. Do not feel under pressure. When god created time he made a lot.

http://youtu.be/WskRAEggqkQ

 

Tell me the story how someone translated the bible in England to punish the catholic church. Sounds somehow nice.

http://youtu.be/1PdyHcJgYI4

 

John 14:28 ...for my Father is greater than I.

Same in essence, not in person. All are God. But the person of the Father is greater than the person of the Son.

I don't feel any pressure.

Quantrill

 

So you don't accept the athanasian creed and you don't accept your own human logic because you are trusting in your own interpretation of textes of the bible only. Hmm - whatever - today I read a very astonishing and very wonderful text from Albertus Magnus who lived about 800 years ago and the athanasian creed was written about 600-700 years before him. The german title of this text is the "twelve good pieces" (="zwölf gute Stücke"). I don't know wether you are able to find it in english language. If, then you can find in this text a kind of unversality what is much more important than you can find in lots of textes of the bible. The bible is not a god - also everywhere all around you is his word, is his creation.

http://youtu.be/UiRpXsWlZK4

 

The word Paul used for 'vision' was 'optasia' which means occurrence. So a heavenly occurrence that blinded him.

Point being more than his own imagination being described here.