PETER HITCHENS: Wear a mask if you want - but understand it's about fear and control, NOT health...

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by InWalkedBud, Jan 5, 2023.

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  1. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    Nice try but you claimed that wearing a mask during exercise causes an increased heart rate and then claimed that would result in high blood pressure etc.

    Let me clarify. Tachycardia can cause the health conditions you were citing not a transient rise in heart rate that you were saying is caused from exercising with a mask on. I assumed you were referring to tachycardia because you were discussing conditions caused by prolonged tachycardia. I also made my points related to heart rate increases as well. It doesn’t really matter though does it because a transient increase in heart rate does not cause the conditions you mentioned.

    The transient rise in heart rate via exercise doesn't cause high blood pressure, heart disease or stroke. Why on earth would a transient rise in heart rate from wearing a mask during exercise (as you claim) cause high blood pressure, heart disease or stroke? It's long term tachycardia that results in such health issues.

    Are people working in offices exercising? Wearing a mask at rest does not make the heart work harder. That’s straight up bullshit.

    Whether you find it boring or not is a moot point. You are posting misinformation that people are refuting so the truth is told. If you present medical studies for a living why can’t you post studies here that support your points. You post garbage. I do actually have a good understanding of the studies I post and a I possess a lot of education in the sciences and statistics.

    Again, you stated that wearing a mask during exercise causes health issues caused by an increased heart rate. The studies I presented were directly related to mask wearing during exercise. I posted the actual conclusions which stated wearing masks during exercise really doesn’t cause any issues. If you don’t agree with the results, contact the researchers and dazzle them with your knowledge because you as a random poster on the internet possess more expertise than they do. Not. If wearing a mask during exercise doesn’t cause issues why would wearing a mask during rest cause issues. Answer, it doesn’t. And by the way, research confirms that people with asthma, COPD don’t experience any untoward physiological health effects from wearing a mask for prolonged periods.

    Surgeons, nurses, dentists have voluntarily worn masks for prolonged periods for years and surely by now any untoward health effects have been reported. When the government told people they had to wear a mask all of a sudden there are reports of all sorts of things after about a month. There were no health issues until idiots made it political and decided their political views are so much important than the lives of vulnerable people.

    If a person experiences negative consequences, they could have gotten an exemption. Now you are talking about potential consequences, rather than actual consequences. I am sorry your brother had such a tough time but that doesn’t support all the misinformation you have been posting.

    That is a bunch of crap as well. Masks are not 100 percent effective but they are effective at vastly decreasing the transmission of covid.



    You are posting harmful misinformation. I will no longer respond to you but I will continue to produce links and articles to correct your misinformation.

    As for posting a straw man. I did not. I refuted your posts related to masks being harmful. Maybe I wasn’t clear or maybe you didn’t understand what I was saying. I did not replace any of your points with a new point. Anything I said was directly related to what you said. It’s all relevant to masks and that they generally don’t cause any harm. I do know of people who got mask exemptions during the time when they were mandated for lung related reasons. Of course, they were protected because those around them were wearing masks in public enclosed spaces and were social distancing as well. Most people who have lung issues and can’t wear a mask are vulnerable and do depend on others to protect them. I wonder if you wore a mask around your brother to protect him. My nephew has cystic fibrosis and he knows exactly what it’s like not to be able to breathe, he wore a mask even though he found it difficult when his lungs were full of crap. He has been and continues to be protected by mask wearers. We all have our anecdotes but the research has refuted all your misinformation.

    Like I said I will no longer respond to you. I will refute your harmful misinformation so others can understand what you are saying about masks being harmful is misinformation and that obviously stems from confirmation bias.
     
  2. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My goodness, I am not sure that I have ever seen my argument mischaracterized this much. At no point have I said that wearing a mask during exercise causes an increased heart rate that leads to high blood pressure. Go back and read for yourself because your memory is faulty. You said that some doctor took to twitter in order to say that masks do not effect oxygenation.... and in order to refute that notion, I went to the extreme of difficult oxygenation (exercise) to illustrate that of course a mask makes breathing more difficult as anyone that has ever tried exercising in a mask knows full well. I even went on to ask you "why you think that is?", because I was looking for the simple acknowledgment that yes, of course a mask makes breathing more laborious. In truth, there is literally nothing to argue in that statement. It beyond any shadow of a doubt makes breathing more difficult.

    My point was never that during exercise the heart rate increases which leads to high blood pressure. That is a pure and utter fabrication, and your subsequent argument about tachycardia is equally off base. I never made any claim about exercise with a mask causing high blood pressure, heart disease, and stroke risk. An increase in blood pressure would NOT be a result of 30 minutes of exercise, rather it would be a cumulative effect of someone wearing a mask for large chunks of their day over a long period of time, and what I said is that as a result of the additional work that it takes to breath in a mask (I did NOT attribute this to exercise, surely not solely), means that the heart has to pump a little harder in order to maintain the necessary oxygen levels, and that this long term increase in work can impact blood pressure which is undeniably true. I am not sounding a panic alarm for the majority of healthy individuals, rather I am pointing out that mandating this for an entire society is in the aggregate going to have a tendency to exacerbate blood pressure levels due to the increased work required for oxygenation while wearing a mask.

    You are sitting there acting as if I am shifting my argument, but I have done no such thing. If you go back and read our exchange, you will see that this was NEVER predicated upon exercise. For crying out loud, 30 minutes is virtually nothing. I am referring to the long-term chronic use of masks in office buildings and the like. Exercise is hardly on the radar. Its inclusion in this conversation was nothing other than pointing to an extreme and undeniable situation where yes, of course it is harder to breathe while wearing a mask.

    No, it is NOT. Wearing a mask while at rest absolutely makes the heart work harder in order to maintain the same oxygenation that it does at rest without a mask. This is precisely why I pointed to the exercise example so that you would understand. Just because the extra work is more obvious with exercise, does not mean that there is no extra work at great. That extra work applies to every second that someone wears a mask. The harder it is to bring in oxygen, the faster the heart pumps to compensate. We are not talking about enough that is necessarily going to give someone a heart attack, rather we are talking about the long term chrnoiic effects of an increase in the work that the heart has to perform leading to higher blood pressure. The heart also has to work harder for someone that is obese and it too can result in high blood pressure. Even putting on 10 pounds can cause certain people to have high blood pressure over the long term. Even putting a little extra effort on the heart in having to get more oxygen while behind a mask can have a similar effect.

    There is nothing truly debatable about this.



    I am not posting misinformation. As someone that presents and argues medical studies for a living, I can tell you that you do not grasp the notion of arguing with medical studies. I have seen you make several glaring errors. You seem to be under this mistaken impression that you can jump into any conversation, present a study that appears to support your point of view, and then the discussion is over. In reality, that is merely where it begins because there are studies that are all similar but different that contradict each other and the actual debate lies in the details.

    You have provided several links and then not commented on them in the belief that you have just proven something. You throw out studies that wearing a mask is not dangerous for healthy people, but is that actually addressing what I had just said? No, because not everyone is healthy and my argument is not that all people need to fear masks, rather it is that there is a negative cost to society in the problems for people that are less than healthy and perhaps borderline to begin with. Additionally, such a study is short term, probably looking at the physiologic response to someone on a treadmill and taking their vitals. My position is not that it is going to kill someone on the spot, rather I am arguing that the long term consequences can increase blood pressure due to the extra work put on the heart for people that are less than healthy. How do I know that there are not long term studies on this topic, or certainly not any good ones? Because having presented studies for decades, I know full well that you could never isolate down to one variable of mask wearing to derive long term impacts of mask wearing on blood pressure. In other words, if you fond a correlation it would mean nothing because did the impact on blood pressure happen because of mask wearing or more sedentary lifestyles during an economic shutdown? You would have no way of knowing this.

    You then have went on to argue against it causing tachycardia when I have made no such argument whatsoever. Again, You are arguing against a short term process and a short term study, and I am talking about a long term chronic process. You keep trying to fit your square peg into a round hole and pretend like they go together. They do not.

    You are utterly convinced that you are arguing the science, but in reality you are just wandering hopelessly out in left field. You are sonconvinced that you are right, but you still to this point clearly do not even understand what I have said on the subject.

    If you want to use a link as your argument. Present one, and then explain why you think it addresses what I had just said. I will be happy to address any specific point that you feel is important, but just throwing out countless links with little to no explanation and then thinking that you represent the science?....is downright delusional. You have been off literally in every summation you have tried to make of my point.





    My goodness....I will say it once more. MY POSITION HAS NEVER BEEN THAT EXERCISE WEARING A MASK CAUSES AN INCREASED HEART RATE THAT LEADS TO HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE. I am not sure how to be any more clear on that. id you catch that? IO am sincerely exhausted continually knocking down this strawman. That was never my argument. I am arguing a long term process. You are arguing short term results.

    You mention above that surgeons and nurses wear masks. Indeed they do. This does not mean that therefore everyone can wear masks. You can rest assured that there are surgeons with COPD or some other respiratory/ cardiovascular conditions where they have to stop performing surgeries because they can no longer wear masks for long periods of time. You are arguing against some notion that a perfectly healthy person can handle it and indeed they can. Unfortunately, when the government enacts a mask mandate, not everyone under that mandate is perfectly healthy. Do you understand this distinction? If you do that will be new because up until this point your argument about healthy people or most people which was part of several of your links, is NOT responding to my argument.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  3. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    Maybe some didn't get the option of a chip in their mask.
     
  4. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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  5. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    It would appear that you are still doing so.

    No, they don't. Not even at all. Viruses are smaller than mask pores. Do you also think that plastic barriers at grocery store check out lanes somehow increase your chance of not getting a covid infection?

    Here is a prime example of the "Marxist We".

    Yes, it's been known all along that masks do not stop/protect/prevent one from getting infected.

    Yes, they are INTENDED to protect the wearer, actually. Masks are intended to protect the wearer from exposure to fine particulates (such as while woodworking, sanding, gardening, and etc). They also protect surgeons (and their patients) from the inadvertent exchange of bodily fluids while performing surgery. Masks are INTENDED to be worn only while performing such work.

    Nonsense. Masks are designed to protect the wearer from exposure to fine particulates, as I have described above. Do you also apply sunscreen to yourself to protect the skin of people around you?

    Masks do not prevent disease. They are nothing more than "ceremonial garb" when it comes to the Church of COVID.

    Neither a cold, nor a flu, nor COVID can in and of themselves cause death. It is a subsequent opportunistic infection called pneumonia which can kill if not treated properly early enough.

    Do you even know what a vaccine is?
     
  6. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    My doctor's office doesn't require a mask. That's because my doctor's office knows that this is all just fear mongering BS.
     
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  7. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    My doctor doesn't wear a mask.
     
  8. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your doctor probably doesn't wash his hands either after using the bathroom. I hope he doesn't sneeze during surgeries.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2023
  9. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    It's about time a politician has the balls to remove any and all mandates, laws and policies regarding covid and covid injections from his governing state. Along with protecting physicians and allowing the ones that had been silenced, to speak up without ramifications. Well done DeSantis, bravo...:applause::applause::applause:
     
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  10. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unfortunately, in addition to mandates (which no longer exist), they also removed the freedom of business owners to decide how they want to handle it within their business.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2023
  11. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    How is it fear mongering at this point in time?
     
  12. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    The discrimination of the mandates, laws and policies still lingers like a bad smell. What choice did the employee have, get jabbed or lose your job?
     
  13. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    What does one have to do with the other?

    He is a PCP (internal medicine), not a surgeon.
     
  14. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    So it was fear mongering before but now it's not?
     
  15. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    Correct. Seeing that it's only some doctors offices and hospitals that are CHOOSING to wear masks I would say no, it's not fear mongering.
     
  16. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let's just say that I hope your dentist (ALL dentists) washes his hands after using the bathroom, and preferably also wears a mask and gloves while operating near open mouths. Can you imagine your dentists doing the #2 in the bathroom and then sticking his fingers in your mouth?

    Not sure if DeSantis laws makes it illegal for the dentist office, or hospitals, to require masks & gloves for their employees...... There was no exemption list in his demand.

    Does he wear a glove while checking your prostate? If so, is it out of fear mongering?

    With the new law, masks & gloves are optional in the surgery room.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2023
  17. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't you think that the ones who are still doing it after all this time are the ones who are still fear mongering?
     
  18. ECA

    ECA Well-Known Member

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    No
     
  19. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Bodily fluids are not viruses.

    Irrelevant rambling.

    Prostate exams are not viruses.
     
  20. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, you do find masks useful, but oppose them anyway......interesting.

    Bodily fluids carry viruses.
     
  21. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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  22. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Quite effective, which is why every surgeon wears one during procedures. Well, at least they used to, but it might be illegal to ask them to wear one now.
     
  23. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    The average time to perform surgery is 1.5 - 3 hrs. So a surgeon doesn't wear one for 8-12 or more waking hours, as opposed to an office worker or school children wearing them from 6-8 hrs daily during the week. Where prolonged use of the mask can cause other health issues:

    Masks are Harmful: 17 Ways That Masks Can Cause Harm
     
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  24. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Slightly is not a good enough reason to force anyone to wear a mask. If you don't feel safe. Fix your self.
     
  25. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Except that there is little real evidence that it mitigates anything.
     

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