Practical Firearms Discussion: The Rifle For Emergencies.

When one is involved in the study of weaponcraft as long as I've been, one can see a sometimes dramatic evolution in what is considered "best" for general purpose use.

When I first started, law enforcement issued six-shot revolvers more than any other type of sidearm, though the 1911 .45 was coming on strong thanks to the teachings of Col. Jeff Cooper and his "Modern Technique" of pistolcraft, and the most popular long arm was the ubiquitous 12-gauge pump-action "riot" shotgun; usually an Ithaca 37 or a Remington 870.

By the late 1990's/early 2000's, the shotgun remained top of the heap, but the tactical carbine - generally the Ruger Mini-14 or the versatile AR-15 - was making serious inroads. When I was in the US Border Patrol starting in the late 90's, our issue long guns were a choice between a short-barreled Remington 870 shotgun or a select-fire M4 Carbine, and while the power the shotgun brought to the table was comforting in some situations I ultimately came to prefer the M4 due to its increased range and precision.

Fast forward 20 years, and there appears to be a growing threat of breakdown of public order in some parts of the country, natural disasters, and just general situations where a citizen might want to make sure his personal "kit" includes a good long gun. Some people continue to think (with admittedly legitimate reasons) of the 12 gauge shotgun as being the most versatile and useful tool; being valuable for a broad range of survival, hunting, and defense situations.

Being someone who is no longer in law enforcement, I look at my needs through the lens of being a private citizen, and as my father used to say: "Live for the best case, but plan for the worst case." For a long time I stuck with the high capacity sidearm and the standard tactical carbine as part of my EDC emergency response kit, but I also saw Col. Cooper's "Scout" concept - a lightweight, hard-hitting bolt-action rifle - as having merit as well; provided you trained for its limitations (and strengths) compared to the self-loading rifle.

Recently, however, I found myself looking at the classic lever-action rifle, modified for the purpose, as being a legitimate "SHTF" weapon. Broken down and unobtrusive when not in use, but capable of effective defensive application or even light hunting should need be. I was originally thinking the traditional .30-30 round, which is available pretty much anywhere; but as I think more on it I think maybe in .44 Magnum. Shorter, lighter rifle, harder hitting at close range, and with a respectable ammunition payload; as well as a perfect companion for a handgun chambered in the same round.

What say you?

 

AR15 carbine in 5.56.
Get one in 7.62x39 or x51 if you want to reliably take deer with it.
You can also get one in 9mm/40/10mm/45ACP to match your sidearm, if that's important.

 

I've used the AR platform extensively, and have a couple of examples of the breed I've used extensively as personal defense/general purpose guns; so I'm not saying this as someone who's down on the AR.

That said, when one discusses the general purpose rifle platform, one of the things Cooper and his peers found in discussing the general purpose/scout rifle, is that semi-automatics for the most part are bulkier and more maintenance intensive than a manually-operated repeater like a bolt- or lever-action rifle; and you don't have to worry about keeping a supply of magazines around when you're talking about the lever or bolt gun.

The handgun caliber rifle in .44 Magnum brings much more power to the table than most semi-auto carbines/PDW platforms in 9/40/10mm/.45 do (although 10mm is a good, powerful caliber in its own right) and adds the ability to run lighter-recoiling, reduced muzzle blast .44 Special cartridges in it as well. It's trimmer and lighter than comparable AR-pattern rifles too.

 

Well, OK - but for a lever or a bolt gun, you have to keep loose rounds handy and load them individually...?
Seems like the magazines aren't much of a hassle.

True - but this is only impoertant if you want to have your rifle and handgun in the same caliber, and you choose 44M for your sidearm.

 

I'd go with a 300 Blk in a short barrel pistol config.

Big enough to hunt, common weapon system that you could find parts for, can be broken down, great close range weapon, could be used to hunt larger game and sub 100 yards or so, can be suppressed.

I see the magazines as a bonus. Carrying ammo in magazines is a lot more ergonomic than carrying it in other ways.

 

That depends on how much practice you have with the system. Having an ammo reserve on the weapon (I tend to use a buttstock carrier that holds 10 extra rounds) means you can actually easily pop rounds out of the ammo loop and put it in the loading gate with very smooth, fast movements. No harder to learn than doing a tactical reload with the mag-fed carbine, really, when you get right down to it; again, provided you dedicate yourself to practicing with it.

Truly, this is a subject I've debated with myself a lot. My grandfather, as a police officer, kept a Winchester model 92 lever-action rifle as a backup gun in his car, modified from .44-40 to .44 Mag (though he usually kept it loaded with Specials) and believed in the utility of having to only worry about keeping one type of ammo around. Then again, I like the Scout concept, using a 1911 or similar semi-auto as my sidearm, and then a light .30 cal rifle for the serious applications. Then again, I like the firepower of the self-loading tactical carbine as well, and I'm well trained with it so there's a comfort factor there too.

 

I formed my own firearms views while in college during the 1970's.

Three out of the six frat brothers in our frat house were gun enthusiasts.

One had a 30-30 lever action Winchester which he worshipped. He was a Spokane Wash State cowboy.

Another had a pistol and revolver collection. He was from Denver or Salt Lake City someplace in the Rocky Mountains. I got to sample all his guns and then settled on a Smith & Wesson Model 39 9x19. He was an invaluable friend in learning about handguns. (A handgun is a gun you can shoot with one had -- R.Lee Ermy.)

The third had a 30-06 deer rifle. He was from somewhere in northern Arizona.

My first owned gun was the 9x19 by Smith.

My next gun was one of the early 5.56x45 Ruger Mini's when they first came out. This carbine was the perfect combination of the M-1 design and the 5.56 caliber.

My third gun was a Ruger 300 Win Mag.

After (advanced) infantry basic school I graduated to the 45ACP eventually. I experimented with some more Smith's first -- the 357 mag and the 44 mag.

I have a new Series 580 Ruger Mini now. I have had one since 1976 when they first came out and this is my idea of the perfect intermediate range 25 to 500 yard firearm.

My hunting gun is now a Remington 300 RUM. It is my second Remington. I love it. It will bag anything in North America. And I have no plans to visit Africa anytime soon.

To round out my gun armory, I also have a Mossberg high cap 12 gauge pump in Model 590. This is my backup gun (after my 45ACP) in my job as a security guard.

 

Like I said previously, it depends on how much practice you've put in. Mags can be lost, or break, or otherwise become inoperative; leaving you with a very high-end single shot. The advantage of a lever action or bolt action rifle is the magazine is integral to the weapon; the same advantage one can have with a revolver.

Again, just throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks.

 

Sure but in a SHTF situation they would be fairly plentiful. Plus....I have.....a "few"

I mean from a "scavenging parts" type scenario it would be a very common system laying around.

I do like the lever guns, but if it broke you'd have a tough time finding spare parts.

 

And you haven't adjusted opinion according to the evidence since? If not, weren't you worried about your stagnancy?

 

Weaponcraft begins with a rock. When we were little kids we learned all about rocks in preschool on the playground.

After the rock, you learn about the spear. A tree branch works fine as a spear. When I was 5 years old I fought-off a German Shepherd dog with a fallen tree branch. Also sprach Zarathustra.

Next you learn about pocket knives. This comes from fishing and cleaning fish. I got mine when I was 8.

Most guys get a bow and arrow kit for Xmas at some point. I was 10 years old when I finally got mine.

At some point in your life someone hands you a gun and lets you shoot it. This is like a bow and arrow on steroids.

For me the evolution continued with the 9x19 in college when I turned 21, the 5.56x45 shortly after graduation, and then the giant leap to the 300 Win Mag hunting rifle and the common 12 gauge shotgun once back in the civilian world after the military experience.

Overall I think the shotgun is the best for self defense.

A local biker gang leader said he was going to kill me whenever he got a chance. I rely on my 12 gauge, my shot shell bandoleer, and my plate carrier vest in case he ever tries it.

 

Pump action !!!

Pump action !!!

Pump action !!!

 

For my bolt action Remington 300 RUM I carry a few cartridges in my shirt pocket and the rifle unloaded when I hunt. Safer that way. I have never needed more than one shot.

For my 12 gauge, I have a 50 shell bandoleer.

For my Series 580 Ruger Mini-14 I have 3 high cap mags. I can attach the mag pouch for them to the front of my plate carrier vest. Why did they NOT have these (invented yet) when I was in the infantry ?!

 

People/shooters either love the AR-platform or hate it.

I hate it.

For those (of us) who hate it, there is either the AK-platform or the Ruger Mini platform as viable alternatives.

 

For close range, nothing beats a shotgun for sheer destructive power; I agree.

But, for a number of applications outside of close range defensive uses, the shotgun can be limiting.

Again, I think the shotgun is great within its niche.

I've experimented with a number of carbine types over the years. I do like the AR for some aspects of it, and I also like the AK. I ended up running a Robinson Arms XCR; it had the best of both worlds, and runs exceptionally well. Easily convertible from 5.56 to 7.62x39 and even .300 BLK too.

 

Plentiful, sure; and I have a "few" myself!

But then, I'm a touch uncomfortable in scooping up a mag that might not be fully functional too...

Potentially. But to get to where you'd find rifles tossed about willy nilly the situation would be dire indeed.

True... but then a well-built lever gun is very, very hard to break. The company that builds the takedown pictured in the OP actually replaces most of the internals with upgraded parts, meant to last for decades of hard use. True, unless you have extra parts, there are things that can kill a lever gun if they break under heavy use.

 

The age old debates, best handgun, best rifle, best cartridge, the magic bullet. And the scenarios, SHTF in an urban setting from a short term disaster, SHTF long term live off the land senarios, Riots, etc. Then there are the if I could only have one gun, 2guns, etc.
I have several guns, most fit a particular niche in my arsenal from precision shooting to hunting to self-protection. I have yet figured the one gun/cartridge of Hollywood fame. I have multiple grabs if I have to go depending, and the one in my get home kit kept in my car. None are perfect but have enough versatility for a range of tasks. My thinking changes from time to time. But a couple things I like; simple, easily repaired, reliable, multiple cartridge platforms for opportunistic ammo finds. I want accuracy, lightweight, practically, etc. I have grab and go and I have the give me a minute to think. Then there is short term vs long term.
A few of the guns I have that cross scenarios are, a 9mm glock, a .22 pistol, a .45/.450 smc pistol (HK45C), an M500, and an AR with multiple uppers (likely grab one or two, depending) and a .22 cal adapter.
I don't think you can go wrong with a pistol and a lever gun... lots people survived long periods of isolation with that combo and did well, even against larger game.
I am partial to 1911's given I have been working on them for 40 years, but then, my Glocks I never have to work on and I don't see the need for .45 over 9mm except with mine, I carry .450 SMC cartridges as well.
Might sound strange, but I have taken more game with my scoped 10/22 than any other gun; if that is all I had I wouldn't feel under gunned.
One consideration for the long-term is ammo. How much can you carry that is practical? Which ammo will dry up the fastest. Do you carry small reload kits?

 

I keep a slingshot for just that purpose in my go bag. Quiet, never runs out of ammo, and can be used on small game.

 

Fun subjects to brainstorm about; at least when you're among knowledgeable people. It's all hypothetical for the most part, but can give good insight. I have a tendency, whenever I meet someone who is an experienced professional to ask them about their favorite equipment and why they like it. I've gotten some surprising answers, but it's fascinating to hear their explanations of why they like one tool over another.

I still remember one of my instructors once talking about that ever-elusive "golf-bag gun"; i.e. the one that did everything you could possibly need a gun to do. I think one of the reasons why I find the idea of the "Scout" rifle so compelling is that it's one of the best example of a firearm that may not be the perfect choice for any one application but it can handle almost all applications reasonably well.

A friend of mine once said: "Imagine there's a fire in your house, and you only have enough time to grab one as you dive out the window. Without thinking about it: tell me which one it would be!" and that was your favorite "if I could have only one" firearm. Mine ended up being my .303 pseudo-Scout.

I tend to agree, obviously; there's a lot of versatility and utility to that combo; hence my ponderings upon it.

That's something a lot of people don't think about! I do have an old Lee Loader that easily fits in a pack; set up with dies for .44 Mag you can keep yourself in shells rather easily. It's time consuming and monotonous, but effective. One advantage of revolvers is they do make it easier to retain your brass.

 

I have no issue with the scout rifle concept, but I don't really see the conceptual need to restrict the technical definition to a bolt gun.
For the purpose, a SOCOM-16 is ideal.

 

As much as I like the M14/M1A platform overall, I don't like the idea of them as a general purpose rifle. They're too bulky for the role of a Scout, and way overweight to fit within the parameters. Even from the perspective of a guy like me, who has spent most of his life involved with strength training, it's a lot easier to cover long distances on foot with a 6 pound rifle than a 12 pound. After several hours of going over, around, and through brush and broken terrain that 6 pounds makes a huge difference.

In the end, for a good field rifle, the lighter the better.

 

I say buy one of every gun made and you will be covered.

But seriously, I like lever guns. I have a ‘94 in .44 mag, and a ‘92 in .357 mag. Henry would be a game changer if they came up with a loading gate. But, by all means stay away from Marlins that are not made in Connecticut.

 

Nothing wrong with it, but I'm going to stick with 5.56 AR and a common caliber sidearm like a 9mm or .45acp.
And that's only for a shtf they don't make ammo anymore so you have to use what's most available situation.
I prefer my AKM in 7.62x39. Just a personal preference.

 

I agree with the OP, except in caliber. I prefer the ,45 Colt to the 44. It has a much wider range of bullet weights since it has.been around since the late 1800s. I have a trapper model 94 with the large lever for wearing gloves.

 

There are as many opinions on the right combination as there are SHTF senarios and people thinking about survival. The factors of local (urban vs rural, population density, prevailing weather), threat potential, game availability, terrain, expectation of duration, and many more would be relevant considerations. It’s trying to survive a SHTF senario in the NW vs New Orleans during Katrina. Even questions of hunker down with restocked supplies vs living off the land...and, with the later, if you are part of a many trying to do the same, how long before resources, like game, dwindle? Giving some thought beforehand on the likely senarios one may face puts you at an advantage, certainly over GCAs that think the Government will protect you... then there is the question of experience.
I spent a lot of years solo trekking different environments in different weather conditions for medium duration periods (4-6) week’s. As you observe, one thing I learned was to always be cognizant of weight after have made the mistake when young of wanting to carry a house along...I learned keeping weight at a minimum was an essential... you can get by with a lot less than you think. One additional and often overlooked thing, is both survival and E&E skills. A firearm or firearm combo can be good tools to have along, but they can also be a hindrance or crutch that work counter to survival as well.m
Some of my major considerations weren’t firearms, though I usually had at least one, but things like good knives, multiple fire making options, very compatible water proof shelter material, versatile clothing choices, first aid essentials, etc. I am very good at woodcraft, very accurate with a Shepard’s sling, can make a broad range of primitive but effective weapons, have a good knowledge of edible plants, trapping and other skills obtained by experience. While I sometimes carried one or more firearms, weight was always a consideration and I generally never used them for obtaining game; I conserved ammo for emergency use, finding other means for obtaining game. Over the years, I have probably given as much, if not more consideration to the couple BOB compositions as I have for weapon consideration. The one thing they have in common is they are light weight, easily carried kits, whether my get home kit for urban settings (always have one or more firearms for that) or outback trekking situations. Being alone requires a different set of considerations than being responsible for others. My house is stocked with water and provisions to hunker for 60 days if needed, the most likely senario ... I had to get through such a situation once. While the big one is life changing possible, more likely are those shorter term situations like a Katrina, social unrest (riots), being caught in the wild with a vehicle breakdown, being injured during a hunt or hike, etc.
When I think of my experiences, the most important and indispensable tool I had was a good knife, but it was experience that was the most important.
The are many here that reject the anecdotal experiences of others, but hearing about the various experiences of others in different situations or even various lines of thought is of value to me; always room to learn or revisit my thinking.

BTW, I think it was you that mentioned a portable (pocket) Lee reloading kit. My first was for .45 colt, but had one for .44 Mag and 45ACP. They worked and I used them in college until I bought my first Press. Still have them. But,min the field, you’d still have to pack powder and bullets... but there was a time, flint, lead, mold, and powder ...it worked too.

Another BTW, in my urban get home kit, I carry a jackknife lockpick set. I have the skill to get through a huge array of locks pretty rapidly... most simple tumblers in seconds.