Pregnant US inmate seeks jail release because fetus is ‘innocent’

As the law stands right now, you're right the unborn do not have personhood. But personhood as a concept is not some obscure illogical thing, it is something the anti-abortion movement is pushing on multiple fronts. It will have implications they aren't considering because their focus is solely on making abortion illegal, no matter what they have to twist in order to do it. This woman's case is one example of the outcome that you can have from poorly thought out emotional arguments like fetal personhood.

The unborn is not an individual, the mother is. You hit it on the head when you said the unborn doesn't have personhood legally. That's because the unborn isn't a legal person, isn't an individual. Individuals don't live inside other individuals.

 

The person inside the woman has no choice but to go with her everywhere she goes. They are already being detained, the state didn’t do that. Unfortunately they also must be detained by the woman to survive and that’s why we are against abortion because it’s murder.

 

So has no rights...

An individual what? It can't be an "individual" if it has to stay attached to the woman to survive..

No elastic....a fetus has no rights...

 

Everything you just said up until the very last part is true and I agree with you. Unfortunately, the concept of fetal personhood does not.

 

I do not feel sorry for her, but there's a simple solution. Induce labour and take the child, after birth, out of the prison. Problem solved.

 

Yes.

A fetus does not have the rights or freedoms of a person. They are subject to the travel, healthcare, diet, drugs, alcohol, criminal behavior and other behaviors of the woman - behaviors that can certainly be lethal to a fetus, or lead to serious lasting damage.

Today, the number of births where the fetus was born with syphilis is rising throughout the sun belt. That's perfectly legal assault on the fetus, even though it could be solved by one cheap injection.

Personhood comes at birth. At that point, the person starts getting the protections of persons.

 

Raise your hand if you think you are an American.....

Because here in America we celebrate the rights and liberties of the individual and while some of you may deny that a fetus is a person, a fetus is most certainly an individual.

It's in the DNA. The individual is created when the egg and sperm combine to make a complete strand of human DNA which is distinguishable from both the mother's DNA and the father's DNA. We frequently identify muderers, rapists, and other culprits in criminal procecution using DNA evidence to identify individuals. So too, a fetus is identifiable by his or her DNA. It's science. Or, maybe you ain't an American with American values.

 

Here's my standard: If a fetus is an" individual" then the woman can have it taken out and it can grow on it's own.

In America people have a right to their own body and are NOT obligated to use their body to sustain the life of another...

GOOD Americans believe women have equal rights...

 

Of course men and women have equal rights, I'm glad you brought it up. So, what about the rights of the father? After all, he stuck the seed in the furrow. You can't deny that he must be entitled to some part of the profits of the man and woman's combined efforts. And, speaking of farming, the decision to have intercourse is ultimately up to the woman, unless you are some kind of monster, so women do have a choice. So do men for that matter.

Either you believe in individual rights or you do not. There is no right to participate in assembling a new individual and then kill the kid. That individual has every bit as much right to life as you do.

Both men and women need to take responsibility for their actions. Screw around and you might get pregnant. It's not like nobody would never suspect it, and it's not some kind of "accident", or that pregnancy "just happens".

 

I see you couldn't answer my post....that was expected.

I see you refer to women as "furrows".

Having sex with a woman entitles a man to NOTHING.

A man does NOT own a woman because he had sex with her ....that is an idea from the days when humans lived in caves and grunted a lot.

Yes, women DO take responsibility for their very human actions and sometimes that means not having a kid they don't want and/or can't afford.

What about the "rights" of the father? If he tells the woman she must have an abortion are you for that????

 

So you don't think abortion affects the father? Sounds sexist.

Since when does the father control the mother's behavior?

Screwing around and the killing the inevitable product of screwing around in order to relieve oneself of one's responsibility is practically the definition of irresponsibility. It's like baking a cake then tossing it from oven to garbage can.

Rights and responsibility go hand in hand. If a person claims a right they must accept the responsibility that comes along with that right.

 

what did you expect me to answer in your post #33.

I don't see a question mark.

 

You're just playing word games.

Being unique doesn't mean being viable or any other measure.

BTW, suggesting that to be an American people have to share your personal beliefs is WAY beyond silly.

 

You're making elaborate assumptions in order to try to find a way to support some idea you have.

 

Men and women are NOT biologically equal in procreation.

Even YOU point out that there are individual rights.

You can't blame a woman for failing to accept you as a life partner.

 

I said men and women have equal rights. Where in your mind did I claim that "men and women are biologically equal in procreation"? I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

 

I mean that the realities of procreation and biology are not equally divided between males and females.

And, individuals do have rights, including over their own bodies.

 

Oh, you mean the responsibilities of men and women differ. Yeah I totally agree with that. That does not change the fact the men and women have equal rights. It's just as wrong for a man to kill a fetus as it is for a woman to kill a fetus.

 

No, the rights of a woman over her own body are HERS.

Period.

You can form a relationship with her and maybe you can come up with shared solutions.

But, she still has the rights of her own body.

 

Well yeah, that's how come the woman has rights in the first place.

All rights are based on the assumption that one owns one's own body.

And the fetus has a body.

 

I see you couldn't answer my post....that was expected.

I see you refer to women as "furrows".

Having sex with a woman entitles a man to NOTHING.

A man does NOT own a woman because he had sex with her ....that is an idea from the days when humans lived in caves and grunted a lot.

Yes, women DO take responsibility for their very human actions and sometimes that means not having a kid they don't want and/or can't afford.

What about the "rights" of the father? If he tells the woman she must have an abortion are you for that????

Where TF did I say that? NOWHERE?

Now I know why you don't use the quote feature which notifies other posters of your response...you haven't got a "response"


And you obviously had to make something up here.....

It might be IF I had said it but I didn't...

He never should as I explained in the post of mine you couldn't quote

Here's another place you run afoul....YOU think YOU determine what IS or ISN'T "responsibility"....and you don't.....would you like someone dictating to you what YOUR responsibilty is?

 

So what? It isn't born yet so it has no rights.....

IF it had rights they would interfere with the woman's rights so if she didn't want it, out it would go.


NO one has the right to use another's body to sustain their life.

 

No, no two people have the right to participate in activities that may result in the inadvertent creation of a third individual unless they accept the consequences of their actions, that being the responsibility to see that the individual they brought into this world is cared for.

The woman has a right to her body, the man has a right to his body, and the fetus has the right to their body.

The couple made a choice with full knowledge that their actions could result in pregnancy. Well if you are going to dance, you gotta pay the piper.

 

Uh, has no one told you that you don't rule the earth??

Yes, which is why she is free to get an abortion

AND NO ONE ELSE'S

What a surprise...an Anti-Choicer who wants to punish people for having sex....do you know what that says about you?




Now I know why you don't use the quote feature which notifies other posters of your response...you haven't got a "response"

 

So you cannot keep up with a thread without being reminded of it existence. Sounds like a personal problem on your end. Your behavior is out of my control. Remember, "If no one quotes you then you probably haven't said a thing worth saying".

Let's back up a bit. You claim that the mother has rights above the rights of both the rights of the father and the rights of the fetus. So much for equal rights. But what is the source of "rights"?

Rights are not subject to Man's whims. All rights are founded on the presumption that each individual owns their own body. What this means is that all rights are essentially property rights.

Here are some things you own-

You own your body.
You own your behavior.
You own the fruit of your labor.
You own your will.

All these rights come with responsibilities. As a consequence of owning your body and every other individual owning their own body, you are responsible to Mankind for everything they told you that you were responsible for, way back in kindergarten. -

Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal, and keep your hands off of other people's stuff. Real simple.