SBU arrests DPR militant that transported BUK used on MH17.

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by zoom_copter66, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Well, then, if you are a male, then you are a rapist.
    You know why?
    Because it’s possible for you to be a rapist.

    SU25 does not carry air to air missiles. Russian trolls claims the plane went down due to cannon fire. Let’s stick to the theory. Even Russian media doesn’t claim SU25 carries AAMs.
    Stick to the story. Otherwise you have even less “evidence” as even Russians don’t agree with that.

    That’s just outright ridiculous.

    Well, your quote just above this one proves that you are a real expert on stupidity and logic.
    I’ll stick with Dutch version.
     
  2. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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  3. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    @bidjo
    @Yazverg
    @Eleuthera

    Ukraine has more than 20 of these:

    3866DF29-2933-469A-8FA3-09653F18AA1D.jpeg


    And just 13 of these:

    5428351F-08B1-44E3-B692-AECD26E35026.jpeg

    Now, look at each aircraft and tell me which one cannot chase an airliner.

    Hint - the one that looks like a tank with wings. No matter what you do to that machine, it simply cannot go fast and high. You can’t argue against physics. Claiming SU25 shot down B777 is so absurd, even Russian engineers from Sukhoi were saying the claim is stupid.
     
    zoom_copter66 likes this.
  4. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who accused the Ukrainian government of shooting down that aircraft. The civilized world knows that Russia did it. The Americans are a neutral party and if they say that the Russians it , rhen the Russians did it. EOS!
     
  5. Eadora

    Eadora Well-Known Member

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    Of Course - The standard "Washed Brain Response"
    "The Americans are a neutral party and if they say that the Russians it, [​IMG]rhen[​IMG]

    ...................................................................................................................... the Russians did it."

    PARTIZAN1 - .... Have you ever tried thinking for yourself, instead of slopping back.
    .
    the gruel fed to YOU from the infected bowl of YOUR Corporate funded MSM propaganda mills ?

    & to say
    "Americans are a neutral party" in this regard ! ? - What a laughable utterly Ridiculous assertion

    .May I advise: -
    Insulting YOUR audience and assuming them to be STUPID is NOT a wise debate technique
    The United States Spent $5 Billion On Ukraine Anti-Government Riots
    Hardly the actions of a "neutal party"
    https://www.politifact.com/punditfa...-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/


    So Sorry to Inform Good PARTIZAN1 -
    The "civilized world" knows of YOUR leaders Lies, Cheats, & Thievery - All Crimes gleefully
    ascribed to the "Glorious American Experiment." and accompanied by laughter & applause

    This patently STUPID off the cuff admission by a former head of the CIA pretty well destroys
    any credibility YOU people might have in YOUR Apologies & Diversions regarding the MH17 shoot down.

    For even if TRUE, how can it be believed without serious doubt, coming from people who laugh
    and applaud at their own Malignant Machinations that they ascribe to be a Glorious Experiment ?

    --Case Closed-- and any continued laboring of the point only reveals an obstinate Foolery void of Intellect




    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  6. Eadora

    Eadora Well-Known Member

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    "The Americans are a neutral party and if they say that the Russians it, [​IMG]rhen[​IMG]
    ........................................................................................................................ the Russians did it."
    ..........................................

    How can YOU in Good Conscience believe anything this Blub fat, arrogant, repulsive, Psychopath
    ............................................................................................................... or the Pigs who pull his strings - say ?
     
  7. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    My own theory is that 1 AAM was fired, and I say that because the BBC piece showed an amateur video slightly out of focus, and that video was quickly taken down. What it showed was the last few seconds of MH17, and it was spiraling to earth with the left engine on fire, as though it had taken such a missile. Just guessing, the airplane was about 2000 feet spiraling down, maybe a little bit higher.

    So I theorize the AAM struck and the craft went out of control, certainly slowed down, to the point that one of the military aircraft was able to get into position to fire cannon off the left rear quadrant of the Boeing. The one cannon round that creased the outer top portion of the left wing was a beautifully straight line from the 7 or 8 o'clock position right to the cockpit.
     
  8. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    The matter is decided by a formula describing the dynamics of flying aircraft.

    In this case, the target is flying at a known altitude and course, steady speed. We know that once entering Ukrainian airspace, the flight was given a slightly lower altitude and a different routing, taking it over known points.

    The attacking aircraft must time its launch and climb to arrive at the approaching target so that it can get tactical advantage over the target, not difficult to do.

    Even a ground attack aircraft like the Frogfoot could launch with minimum fuel and a very light but appropriate weapons load. 40 minutes or less worth of fuel would work for a 20 minute mission. Put an AAM up the tailpipe, and then maneuver to get position on the wounded target. A proverbial cake walk.

    Is that too difficult to understand?
     
  9. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    The burden of proof is on the one advancing the claims and assertions. That means it is on the western media and its "anonymous sources". That means it is on you too, because you buy into their nonsense and promote that nonsense here, today. In 5 years the US has not provided one single piece of evidence to support its assertions.
     
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  10. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    There is no need for Su-25 (armor with wings) to 'chase' airliner. This is entirely a job for AA missile. Quite an easy job. The problem however is different. Of what we see in reconstruction is an obvious destruction of cockpit in the air. And this is not typical for AA missile, which targets in most cases at the temperature of jet-engines. SA missile is heavier and targets a different way. It catches an aircraft goes from above and blows sending a cloud of hitting elements to the plane.

    What I say is that there is actual data of presence of military aircraft in the area where MH-17 was hit. However there has never been any serious investigation on the issue.

    What you say in other words means that if Ukrainian side decided to kill MH-17 - they'd rather use their fighters. This makes sense. But it is only happening in case of war. But if we talk about false flag attack or accident the logics is different.
     
  11. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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  12. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And this is what I am speaking about. The differenct between possibility and fact is the well-performed investigation and undebatable evidence. Nothing like that happened. Until it haven't I feel free to come up with any possibilities which make sense.



    SU25 does carry AA missiles. It is not good to have a defenseless bomber in the air. So it has it.

    The story about cannon fire came in because of two facts:
    1. The plane was in the air and was seen by russian radars.
    2. The cockpit was destroyed in the air, which is not the way AA missile works.

    The combination of these two fact has a logical gap which is covered by suggestion that SU25 first fired a rocket and then destroyed the falling plane with cannon fire... I don't say it did happen. I say it is possible.

    The discussions about 'chasing' a plane don't make sense. SU25 is not capable of that. You are right. But it doesn't object the possibility that it could shoot down the MH17 creating the damage we saw.

    If these statements had a little bit of sense and logic I would certainly answer it. But for now I have to return to my previous statements and repeat them.

    The pilot of SU25 knows that russian fighters can destroy ukrainian air force, because ukrainian air force is aincient artifacts of soviet past with the 'newest' pieces older than an average age of those who participate in this very discussion, while russian air force received new models and proved its efficiency in Syria. At that moment Ukraine was really expecting an attack from Russia military and the first step for modern army to invade is airstrike. So, a pilot could have AA missiiles equipped and could shoot on sight knowing that there should be no other planes in the area. I think that this will be the accepted version, because that very pilot (Voloshin) is dead already and this way no big guys from the conflict will have blood on their hands.

    On the other side SU25 could be used for a false flag attack. Because ukrainian separatists (I think we can call them like this because with the failure of Zelensky to stop the war the people of the region are obviously getting out of control of Ukraine for too long time to return back) have never made any invasive actions or terrorist attacks. This is not very typical for these kinds of conflicts. It is usually non-government paramilitants who hunt for military people or politicians or perform terrorist attacks against the enemy nation. But in that conflict Donbass military concentrates on protecting their people and defensive activity. So there was a risk that this fact will be perceived by the international people and the sympathies will be not on the Kiev's side. Killing around 300 dutch people for justifying killing tens of thousands is not that big deal. So there certainly was an interest for such a false flag attack from the side of Kiev at that very moment.

    If we also memorize There had been a story about the bus near Vonovakha. The bus was stopped by ukrainian army (or paramilitants on ukrainian side who were not part of the army at that moment) Then the video shows mines blowing quite far away and then it is turned to the side of the bus and shows that it was also attacked Everyone in the bus was killed and in my point of viewing that was the job of the mine attached to the tree near the parked bus. Poroshenko brought a piece of the bus to UN telling that it was Russia who killed these people... But the story didn't make any serious effect for public opinion. Western public didn't really care about the lives of these people (mostly women) and even ukrainian people didn't see much of a loss since it was people from Donbass. If the western people recognized that story as terrorist attack there would be no point for the story with MH17 from propaganda reasons...

    What I tell is that there certainly is information war against Russia. And MH17 story was certainly used against Russia. Although there is no evidence at all to prove this supposition and moreover there are plenty of reasons to suspect a false flag attack.
     
  13. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t you claim it was cannon?
     
  14. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Dutch commission had its say.
    It’s on you to prove them wrong. I trust them more than some wild theories or SU25 shooting down B777.
     
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  15. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    They have phone numbers, emails, fax numbers there.
    Call them and ask
     
  16. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Prove this.

    So, now SU25 didn’t just shoot down B777, it also chased the falling aircraft and shoot at its nose?
    Do you realize that the plane immediately fell apart due to explosive decompression? Your theory is absurd.

    SU25 cannot shoot down an airliner going at its regular cruising altitude. Even SU engineers were saying its absurd.

    Russia is blamed because it deserves the blame. It shot down the plane. Even Strelkov was posting happy messages on Facebook of them shooting down Ukrainian plane before they realized that it was a civil airliner.
     
  17. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Easy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_(Su-25/Su-25K,_late_production)
    See - missiles - air-to-air missiles.



    Not really. Decompression kills the people inside. But the plane itself is not falling apart. The rocket hits the engine and the plane starts to fall down. It still has some minutes to fall down.
    But yes, I agree that this is a tough task. But if you think about the possibility to have one SAM launcher of BUK without radar and commander's machine and reloading machine - it is still a hard task to turn the radar without knowing where eactly to look for the target and to fire a missile having some minutes for making decision and aiming. BUK is not just a launcher it is a complex of several machines. So it would be as difficult for anyone to hit down Boeing from BUK as it would be for SU25 to chase and destroy the hit Boeing with cannon fire.
    I only say it is POSSIBLE. I don't say it did happen.


    It cannot chase and destroy the liner with cannon fire. Yes. But it certainly can catch a falling Boeing and finish it with cannon fire. None of air-to-air rocket is able to damage the cockpit the way it was.



    That's a good reason, eh... :)

    I wouldn't take posts in facebook as an evidence. Besides, Strelkov is not a part of russian government and remains a weird clown in all this story. He personally is responsible for growing the conflict inside the Ukraine into a civil war. He was quite provocative in its actions. Besides, it was evidently Kremlin and not any other side who pushed Strelkov out of Donbass. I still don't understand his role in this conflict but it certainly was not the good one.
     
  18. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    As long as both aircraft arrive in the same point in space at the same time, a small speed differential does not matter, especially when the target aircraft is a lumbering passenger airliner. It's not rocket science.
     
  19. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    OK, I stand corrected - a SU25 can have an AAM.
    But there is a problem - these missiles are very small.
    Look at this airliner that was brought down by these missiles:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902

    Most of the aircraft is intact, so your SU25 with AAM missiles theory does not have a leg to stand on.

    No, SU25 was not chasing falling B777. Aircraft disintegrated midair.

    Only in cartoons.
     
  20. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    You claimed the aircraft was downed with cannon fire.
    Then you try to convince me it was SU25 shooting it down with AAM? So, which one was it?
     
  21. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    I have been clear from the start, so please pay attention.

    Based upon what I saw in the early days before BBC and others took down their reporting, MY THEORY is that AAM hit the left engine, and for whatever reason the ship went out of control. Either simultaneously to the AAM or shortly thereafter, the wingman got cannon fire into the cockpit and that could have caused or aggravated the loss of control. The slightly out-of-focus amateur video showed the aircraft's last 2000 feet or so before it spiraled into the earth.
     
  22. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    So far you showed only one consistency - no matter what, Russia can’t be blamed.
    That’s all you are about.
     
  23. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Banned

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    And on that same note, no matter what, even though Ukraine military was in the area and had operating BUK systems, Ukraine can't be blamed....even though they claim "all their radars were down for maintenance" and the government of Malaysia doesn't buy it or blame Russia either.
     
  24. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The attack with old R-60 and the attack with new AAMs is like shooting from medieval musket comparing to shooting from Kalashnikov. The general principle is the same, but the difference is something between one shot every 10 minutes and hundreds of shots per minute. Besides in that case both rockets didn't strike and blasted. The second rocket hit the liner as a big hammer which is not a model attack.
    I have to repeat again that I don't say that it DID happen, but the rocket may have destoryed one of the wings with the engines. In this case the plane will not be able to perform emergency landing. But it won't drop at once. Falling from the altitude of 10 km and speed around 1000 kmh is quite a long journey, The first that starts to decrease is the speed which makes a distance of 10-30 km between SU25 and airliner to nothing with the speed of the first aircraft around 500 kmh. It is still possible that SU25 saw the plane on the radar, approached it falling and finish it with cannon fire. It IS POSSIBLE. Not more than that.



    Desintegrating in the air can happen due to several reasons. The stability of a plane in the air is not due to his thick walls. The construction of the plane has thickness comparable to aluminum can (with coke or beer). If you have a list of suchj an aluminum alloy and get into the car speeding it around 100 kmh then if you try (carefully) to hold this list of aluminum outside the window - you will feel that the stream of air is pushing it back. If the list 'glides' on the air it is stable. But if it bumps into the air - it starts to get hits. So the plane is stable when it glides on the air being in one piece. A rocket doesn't need to destroy all the elements of the plane. It needs just to break it and the air does the rest.

    The only thing which is not explained in this situation is the actual damage of cockpit. In order to do that AAM and air was not enough. SU25 needed to catch the plane falling and destory it with cannon fire. This looks debatable, pointless and difficult. But it is about the same difficult as in the case ofa single BUK rocket launcher. So I only say it is POSSIBLE theoretically.


    Life is a weird cartoon... Sometimes you would never believe in what you see in life.
     
  25. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that before blaming Russia there should have been a serious and open investigation with evidences impossible to deny. But we have got a clumsy and quick observation of the most popular Internet propaganda blaming Russia. That is not worthy at all. Russian ministry of defense and manufacturers of russiam missiles answered every blame and that didn't receive a serious counterarguments from the side of the so-called investigation. As a result the people who died in this attack were sacrificed in the name of hostilities between millions of people, which is certainly a pagan or satanic medieval cult rather than civilized approach.
     
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