The Afghan Military Was Built Over 20 Years. How Did It Collapse So Quickly?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by wgabrie, Aug 14, 2021.

  1. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    13,043
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You are aware that the Kurdish population in Afghanistan is only somewhere around 4,000, right? That is 4,000, out of a population of 38 million. And the Afghan military was over 200,000 when the country dissolved. Even if every single man, woman, and child of Kurdish descent was in uniform, what percentage is 4,000 out of 200,000? At most, they made up maybe 0.25%. And I doubt it was even that high. More likely in the range of 0.05%.

    "Backbone" indeed.

    Then people wonder why I laugh at Conspiracy Theorists. Most know nothing of what they are talking about, they just make it up as they go along.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2021
    Flynn from Az likes this.
  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    36,607
    Likes Received:
    12,074
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think he most likely probably got confused with the earlier conflict against ISIL in Northern Iraq.
     
  3. Flynn from Az

    Flynn from Az Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I’m not saying a Taliban like insurgency is likely too happen in America, let’s hope nothing of the like every comes about. But, too say it isn’t possible is a little far fetched. Under the right set of conditions, anything is possible.
     
  4. Flynn from Az

    Flynn from Az Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2021
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think this was a clumsy attempt at a swipe at Trump. Sadly enough, most Americans are geographically challenged, and rather ignorant of the regions that the US government is militarily involved.
    Or, this could have been just a outright attempt at a lie. I’ll give the benefit of the doubt, and go with the first option.
     
  5. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    14,565
    Likes Received:
    6,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
     
  6. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    4,749
    Likes Received:
    6,803
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Kind'a wonder what the outcome (and how long it would have took) if the Taliban didn't have the sanctuary of our good pals the PAKISTANIS? A twenty year JOKE, JUST like good ol' Vietnam....
     
  7. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    53,292
    Likes Received:
    24,291
    Trophy Points:
    113

    I do think the Taliban insurgency could have been defeated if we had taken the steps to cut them off from their source of rest and resupply; the Pakistani tribal areas. Turning the Afghan-Pakistani border into a kill zone should have been the first and most basic step to dealing with the Taliban. Instead, we decided to teach their girls gender studies...or something? I've never been sure what the military strategy was since they were not doing the obvious one.
     
    Dayton3, Mushroom and joesnagg like this.
  8. Hey Now

    Hey Now Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Messages:
    20,488
    Likes Received:
    16,624
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Afghan corruption. Grifting.
     
    Lindis likes this.
  9. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    13,043
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Because most of that area is tribal, and "country" means little.

    That is why for over 2 decades I have been saying they should have restored the monarchies of each country. The monarchs were popular, but were overthrown by coups either by family members, or others with a darker agenda. But restoring that would have given the soldiers a figurehead to rally behind. Instead, they were stupidly given a "Country", which meant nothing to anybody.
     
    Lil Mike likes this.
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    13,043
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As typical, once the battles were won the State Department stepped in and they ran the show after that.
     
    Lil Mike likes this.
  11. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    14,565
    Likes Received:
    6,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The State Department took over wars as our Generals became politicians and stopped being WARRIORS.
     
    roorooroo likes this.
  12. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Banned

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,531
    Likes Received:
    6,761
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Every nation that the U.S. gives aide to but then falls short in performance is accused of "corruption".
     
    Mushroom likes this.
  13. Imnotreallyhere

    Imnotreallyhere Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2014
    Messages:
    3,018
    Likes Received:
    1,494
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As far as involving the State Dept. goes, diplomacy is "war by other means".

    Our Generals have historically always had some politician mixed in. George Washington was a politician before he was a General. He served in the Virginia House of Burgesses and was a delegate to the Continental Congress.

    To be an effective American General requires some political ability. After all, the purse strings are controlled by politicians. And the Commander in Chief is the biggest politician of them all.
     
  14. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    14,565
    Likes Received:
    6,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I must admit I have a differing view. The State Dept was always a bunch of REMF's to me when I was on active duty. (REMF = "Rear Echelon Mu F'ers")... now known as POGS in this new woke world ("Personnel Other than Grunts"). My mission in life as a Soldier was to "Kill the godless Commie btards by the thousands, rearrange terrain, and make cave dwelling an acceptable standard of living in the homelands of our enemies.") That's what Soldiers do. Don't call a plumber to fix your TV, don't call your pool guy to fix your roof, and don't call a Soldier to be a diplomat. BTW... Lloyd Austin is a West Point classmate of mine. He leaves most of us very confused.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
    roorooroo, Dayton3 and yabberefugee like this.
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    13,043
    Likes Received:
    2,841
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    But before he was a politician, he was an officer in the Colonial Militia. Rising to the rank to Colonel during the French-Indian War, and one of the highest ranking Colonials and well respected by both the other colonies as well as the British with his service with distinction. It was only after that and the militia was demobilized that he turned to politics.
     
    Dayton3 likes this.
  16. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Banned

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,531
    Likes Received:
    6,761
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you find a rock.
     
    AARguy likes this.
  17. Hey Now

    Hey Now Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2021
    Messages:
    20,488
    Likes Received:
    16,624
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Educate yourself by reading books by Sarah Chase.
     
  18. Mircea

    Mircea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    4,075
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    Trophy Points:
    113
    US puppet-dictators are inherently corrupt.
     
    Hey Now likes this.
  19. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Banned

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Messages:
    25,531
    Likes Received:
    6,761
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How do you figure that?
     
    Mushroom likes this.
  20. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    14,565
    Likes Received:
    6,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yup. Biden, the ultimate US puppet dictator is inherently, obviously, and supremely corrupt. Spot on!
     
    roorooroo, ToddWB and Dayton3 like this.
  21. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,295
    Likes Received:
    5,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The US military is way more than just the advanced technology and machines, it's the people themselves that are most important. Order, discipline, and motivation are key fundamentals to the effectiveness of the US military, Sure you can try to model another force off of that but unless those fundamentals are in place then it will fail.

    To put it bluntly, the Afghan Army largely sucks. That's not unique to the Afghans by any means, it includes many other nations like that as well. As someone who spent years helping to train these people I can tell you there is no real fixing that lack of fundamental characteristics that are required of an effective Soldier. Most have likely seen the funny video of the US Soldier attempting to show members of the Afghan Army how to do jumping jacks. Most of them really are THAT pathetic. Read a book or watch a documentary about any US training facility that we have that we allow foreign nationals to attend and you'll see and hear similar stories. Whether it's flight school, Special Forces Q-Course, Navy SEAL BUD/S, etc the foreign nationals almost always perform poorly and at the bottom of the class. In US flight schools the only reason the majority of them even pass is because of the money their governments send to fund their training. They literally cannot "fail" so they are just pushed through when if they were American students they would have been washed out immediately. Thats not to speak ill of all of them, I've met plenty and some of them are extremely competent and proficient. But most just flat out suck and have no business being in a professional military.

    You take those poor characteristics and apply them to an entire national Army and what result can you realistically expect? I'm not thrashing on everyone from those regions by any means as there are plenty of factions that are absolute badasses. The Kurds are warriors on the battlefield and the Gurkha's are down right horrifying and are a people I am glad were on our side. Even as much as I hate to admit it, the Taliban were not ones to mess around with either. These factions have the hearts of warriors and have that order and discipline. The Taliban are no chumps, it takes some serious balls to go toe to toe with those people in a 1 one 1 fair fight. The Gurkha's would fight them, the Kurds fought off ISIS in Iraq like a rabid wolverine even before the US came back to help. But for many people seeing the Taliban or ISIS coming is horrifying and they want no part of it, even a standing "professional" Army like the Afghan Army. Remember many of these people were the Mujahedeen who took down the Soviet Union who had nowhere near the restrictions and "morality" the US and allies had.

    The Taliban isn't easy to hold at bay with a pure ground force. Air power is primarily what kept the Taliban down in Afghanistan. When the US left and took the air power with them it was game over for the Afghan Army. Even with the equipment we left them there is little chance of stopping the Taliban without being able to use air support from above. Sure the Afghans had a bit of an air force but nothing like the 24/7 aerial coverage of US military. So when the Taliban came marching in the Afghan Army largely did what most would do in that situation, they threw down their guns and ran away.

    The Afghan Army was NOT based on the US military. The US military has, for all intents and purposes, an infinite amount of Apache helicopters, A-10s, Predator drones, artillery, etc and highly disciplined and trained troops to fight the Taliban. The Afghan military had around 30 attack aircraft total and mostly undisciplined and unmotivated troops within the ranks. Their war was lost to the Taliban the second the US and allies left. Very few entities in the world can go toe to toe with the Taliban purely on the ground on their home turf and the Afghan Army sure as hell wasn't one of them.
     
    Lil Mike, ToddWB and AARguy like this.
  22. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2021
    Messages:
    14,565
    Likes Received:
    6,823
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Excellent post. Here's one short, anecdotal story you might find interesting. In US Basic Training there is a 25 mile road march with full pack, weapon and helmet. When I Commanded a Basic Training Company at Ft Leonard Wood years ago, I would see Soldiers quitting, getting ready to drop out of the march. I'd go up to them, grab their pack and carry it for them. They were so embarrassed that we didn't get more than a few steps before they asked me to give them their packs back so they could carry them. US troops are proud.

    When I did that same thing with Iraqi troops in Basic, they were quite content to have someone else carry their pack for them.
     
    Lil Mike, Dayton3 and ToddWB like this.
  23. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    11,295
    Likes Received:
    5,146
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Haha yup, I've personally seen this play out in real life as well. Had this happen on a patrol back during the surge. Joint patrol with the Afghan militarized police (ANCOP). They kept complaining about wanting to stop and rest saying they were tired every 20 or so minutes so eventually we lost it and started yelling at them to shut up. We all have full battle armor, full combat loads with some carrying SAW's and 249 heavy machine guns and ammo, grenadiers, mine detector packs, radio packs, etc all amounting to 50-70lbs of crap per person. We're tired too, meanwhile they are wearing what basically amounts to pajamas and carrying a single AK-47. Shut the hell up and keep walking or we're leaving your asses behind. We told our Terp to tell them that, not sure exactly what he told them but they could see by our demeanor and the fact that we were yelling that we were pissed off at them pointing to our armor and packs with one guy taking his pack off and tossing it to one of the ANCOP guys telling him to catch.

    Their response? It's ok we'll just stay here and rest because we're tired. So we left them sitting there. We get back to the outpost and brass asks us where the Afghans were and we told him we left them a few clicks away because they refused to go any further. He jokingly went into professional mode and explained how he's told us plenty of times to stop leaving our allies behind and we are here to support them etc. Then he laughed and said next time we leave them make sure we leave them somewhere near the market so they'll bring us back cigarettes and bootleg movies lol. We all knew they were worthless, brass too.

    It got to the point later on to where we just stopped bringing them along in general, they were an actual danger to bring on patrol. One of them one time tripped and somehow ND'd and shot right next to the heel of one of our guys on patrol. The ANCOP guy started laughing then pointed to his rifle saying haha oops which caused him to receive a massive right hook from the Soldier he almost shot then a swift stomp in the face. Outpost was massively attacked one night due to them falling asleep in the tower on guard duty resulting in US casualties. They created a massive inadvertent IED in the middle of their side of the outpost because they tried to cook dinner in the back of the humvee full of ammo over open flame and blew it up. They attacked US while returning to the outpost on patrol and they were pulling gate guard because they didn't recognize us somehow because during this time the Taliban also walked around in squad formations with full US military battle rattle and NVG's and American flags on their gear and waved to the base control point guards as we approach as we had been doing EVERY NIGHT for the past 11 months. The list is endless, and these are just personal experiences.

    The Afghan "Army" is trash for the most part. A week 1 US Army basic training class would whoop these people in a firefight. There is not a single Soldier or Marine who served in this War on Terror who would tell you that the Afghan military was capable of defending themselves once we leave. The fact that the US government is claiming they were blind sided by the results of the US pullout is 100% bullshit. NOBODY believed the Afghan army would be able to fight back. NOBODY.
     
    AARguy likes this.
  24. Lindis

    Lindis Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2021
    Messages:
    3,272
    Likes Received:
    792
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That definitely was also an important reason for the downfull in the end.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021

Share This Page