The Alternative Ukraine Thread

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by Kris P. Bacon, Jun 19, 2022.

  1. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nonsense.
     
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  2. Vitaliy

    Vitaliy Active Member

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    Leading Western media are trying to get approval of the EU's military policy on Ukraine through manipulation, Italian sociologist Orsini writes in an article for Il Fatto Quiotidiano. So, they use contradictory narratives about a strong and weak Russia.

    In short, the main media, primarily the Corriere della Sera, compulsively repeat that Russia is so strong that we must arm ourselves to the teeth to prevent an invasion of the whole of Europe. At the same time, they say that Moscow is so weak that it cannot occupy Artemovsk (Bakhmut), and in order to complete the game, it is necessary to provide Ukraine with some more weapons. The first narrative (strong Russia) is used to build consensus around NATO expansion to the Russian borders. The second (weak Russia) is used when consent is needed to send weapons to Zelensky. Narratives vary depending on the goals that the Western bloc pursues at one point or another in the conflict in Ukraine.

    If the situation is reasonably assessed, the manipulation becomes obvious. As a counterargument, I suggest reasoning from the opposite. If the Russian Federation is very weak, then there is no need to accept Finland and Sweden into NATO to contain it, as well as to take money for armament from the EU Reconstruction Fund. If Russia is very strong, then Ukraine cannot defeat it, and we must resort to diplomacy.

    These contrasting narratives are being refined to confuse us. This is not difficult, because phenomenological sociology shows that contradictory ideas get along in the consciousness of an ordinary person. An ordinary person, accustomed to mixing concepts and explanations, does not feel an instinctive need to unravel the tangle offered by the leading media, and perceives it uncritically.
     
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  3. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Who did you say is being manipulative?
     
  4. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/6/16/russia-ukraine-live-explosions-rock-kyiv-as-africa-leaders-visit


    Russia-Ukraine war live: Putin insults Zelenskyy’s Jewish roots


    Russian President Vladimir Putin lashes out at Ukraine and its leader in a speech at the St Petersburg International Economic Forum on June 16, 2023 [Sputnik/Ramil Sitdikov/Host photo agency via Reuters]”.

    In a fiery speech, Russian Vladimir Putin called Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy a “disgrace” to the Jewish people and repeats that Kyiv has no chance to win the war.
    Putin should not “speak” for the Jewish people and if he insists on speaking for the Jewish people he needs to be explicit as to why he says that President Zalenskyy is a “disgrace “ to the Jewish people.
     
  5. The Scotsman

    The Scotsman Well-Known Member

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  6. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  7. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/28/rus...or-wednesday-june-28-2023.html#107263871-post


    AND THE BEAT GOES ON

    At least eight dead in missile attack at Kramatorsk restaurant


    At least eight people were killed and 56 were injured in a Russian missile attack that struck a restaurant in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kramatorsk, Ukrainian state emergency services said on Telegram, according to a Google translation.


    Reports says children were killed in the attack on the pizza restaurant.


    And the beat goes on. Russia ( at Putin’s direction) keeps attacking civilian targets. Putin’s apologists say that Russia only attacks military targets. And the beat goes on.


    That Kramatorsk restaurant must be cooking up some powerful military grade attack pizza. And the beat goes on.


    Another aid package with nice useful weapons to Ukraine was announced yesterday. And the beat goes on.


    The west will stand by Ukraine. And the beat goes on.


    No long range weapons in this package , and the beat goes on.


    Rumors are that Ukrainian pilots will be trained to fly F -16s. And the beat goes on.


    Ukrainian civilians are dying. And the beat goes on.


    The west does not want to humiliate or enrage Putin. And the beat goes on.


    Ukrainian children are dying at the hands of Putin. And the beat goes on.

    AND THE BEAT GOES ON
     
  8. Vitaliy

    Vitaliy Active Member

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    Last edited: Jul 16, 2023
  9. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Article behind a paywall; Article not in English. Look at the rules and learn them.
    Besides, what that article's headline says is the exact same thing the Russian government has been doing for years, only much more extreme in typical Kremlin style. It's the logic of a totalitarian dictatorship. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  10. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If the U.S. public used logic, we would stop trusting the main steam media.
     
  11. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And Congress. There was a joint session of Congress about half a year ago,
    where Zelenski got a standing ovation for stating we had won the war in Ukraine,
    and then Zelenski stated that he needed 60,000 million more dollars in weapons
    to win the war and got another standing ovation.

    Is Congress completely stupid, or do they think the public will support total stupidity?
    Or both?
     
  12. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    I heard his speech and recorded it and Zalensky did not say that he won the war
     
  13. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I heard the first bit of his speech, found it too sickening to listen to any more, but
    did hear the little detail:
    "And it gives me good reason to share with you our first joint victory – we defeated Russia in the battle for minds of the world." [applause]

    "We have no fear. Nor should anyone in the world have it.
    Ukrainians gained this victory – and it gives us courage, which inspires the entire world.
    Americans gained this victory – and that's why you have succeeded in uniting the global community to protect freedom and international law.
    Europeans gained this victory – and that's why Europe is now stronger and more independent than ever.
    The Russian tyranny has lost control over us" [standing ovation]
    "and it will never influence our minds again."

    Repetition of the "gained this victory" seems to reinforce that it was some kind of real victory rather than a mental one
    although he ties it with mind control, so keeps the mental part in play.

    But then he goes a bit too far:
    "Yet, we have to do whatever it takes to ensure that countries of the Global South also gain such victory."

    and so on. And he states the objective of defeating the Kremlin.

    That's a Biden objective, not a Trump one or almost anyone else's except those weirdos in Britain.
     
  14. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Zelensky kept talking about victory when he was already making zero net progress even back then.
     
  15. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    You just posted proof that Zalensky did not say that he won the “war”. Thanks.
     
  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Meanwhile on the front...

    Ukraine’s Lack of Weaponry and Training Risks Stalemate in Fight With Russia

    BRUSSELS—When Ukraine launched its big counteroffensive this spring, Western military officials knew Kyiv didn’t have all the training or weapons—from shells to warplanes—that it needed to dislodge Russian forces. But they hoped Ukrainian courage and resourcefulness would carry the day.

    They haven’t. Deep and deadly minefields, extensive fortifications and Russian air power have combined to largely block significant advances by Ukrainian troops. Instead, the campaign risks descending into a stalemate with the potential to burn through lives and equipment without a major shift in momentum.

    In other words, prepare for a long war with casualties piling higher without any real gains on the battlefield.
     
  17. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But perhaps 'stalemate' is a euphemism for 'total collapse'.
     
  18. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  19. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/28/ukrainians-are-breaking-their-ties-with-russian-language/

    This is a really good article about the voluntary use and learning of the Ukrainian language by the Russian speaking Ukrainians. This took off after Russia,s invasions of Ukraine in 2022 and even in 2014.

    I recommend that members here read it.
    Ukrainians are breaking their ties with the Russian language

    By Francesca Ebel and Kostiantyn Khudov

    July 28, 2023 at 1:00 a.m. EDT

    Example =.
    “KHARKIV, Ukraine — In Kharkiv, a historically Russian-speaking city in eastern Ukraine, just 25 miles from the Russian border, Ukrainian classes are in high demand. Waiters, hairdressers and shopkeepers have stopped using Russian. Ukrainian language books are flying off the shelves, and local publishers are struggling to keep up with orders.”.
     
  20. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My question is this: If Ukraine still doesn't have weaponry, and WE have depleted our ammunition stores so far that we have no choice but to send them cluster bombs, then what have they spent our $75 billion taxpayer dollars on?
     
  21. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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  22. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  23. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    The reason to push for blocking aid to Ukraine is purely political and aimed at hurting POTUS Biden politically. Targeting Ukraine to block foreign aid is hypocritical in that it smacks of a partisan political motivation. Basically it is to get at POTUS Biden. If someone is against foreign based upon principle then all foreign aid from Albania to Zambia being stopped would be the honest policy.
     
  24. Hotdogr

    Hotdogr Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't want to necessarily block aid to anyone, but I don't think It's unreasonable to require a detailed accounting of how aid money is spent.
     
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  25. PARTIZAN1

    PARTIZAN1 Well-Known Member

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    A detail accounting and oversite is of in my opinion a reasonable control feature as long as it is applied across the board. Again the rule must be for any country that receives aid starting with Albania ending with Zambia.
     

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