The Middle

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by impermanence, May 26, 2023.

  1. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of politics is in reaching consensus. This is where legislative success and social harmony is to be found between the folks who wish to invest in positive change and those who desire to conserve money and preserve traditional methodology and institutions.

    It is the debate between these two poles which fosters consensus and therefore the ability to speak freely is elemental, indeed the foundation of the entire process. Each side needs to understand that in order for a society to prosper, new mechanisms and institutions need to be created to meet our ever changing world, being mindful that there is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    The political gridlock we find now is extremism mostly on the liberal-progressive side as fanatical leftists are demanding their way or the highway, and the results have been what they always are when fanatics get their way...a total sh*tshow. It would [and has been] the same when extremism reared its ugly head on the right.

    The folks on the left need to understand that communism [and its kissing cousin, socialism] will never work [for all kinds of reasons]. The folks on the right need to understand that some government is necessary and some changes are going to happen [and should]. There are also those in society that need help, the challenge being how to achieve this aid without making the entire situation worse.

    You listen to people defend each side over and over and over and over...until you just want to say, "We get it, shut the f*** up already." How about some actual productive discussion and reaching some kind of consensus? Although it is healthy to air out ALL views regardless of positions taken, there is no place for extreme policy in civil society.

    Extreme policy will fail every single time. If it makes it through the legislative process, then it will be a catastrophe. See the USSR, Communist China, and Nazi Germany as prime examples of what happens when extremism becomes the law of the land.
     
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  2. Xyce

    Xyce Well-Known Member

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    I agree with most of this. To make this post better, instead of writing, "The folks on the right need to understand that some government is necessary and some changes are going to happen [and should]," you might want to specify to which group you are referring. As a conservative, I agree: there is a need for government is certain areas; I think libertarians would essentially agree with that statement, too. That statement would specifically apply to anarchist, which I think can bend either leftward or rightward. For example, it would not be a contradiction for an anarchist to think there should be no restrictions on firearms while also believing that minors should take puberty blockers to better conform with their so-called "gender identity."

    Also, on a not-so-serious note, I think the soundtrack of this thread should be this:

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
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  3. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Being the philosophical anarchist** I am, that makes sense. Just the same, one cannot allow their philosophical bent to blind them to the reality on the ground.

    **For those unaware, a philosophical anarchist is essentially somebody who believes that all institutional power corrupts and that [ideally] power should only be placed in the hands of individuals.

    You can find us in between the hopeless romantics and Utopians on the discount rack! :)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  4. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Those are really good points. Too much of the Left tries to impose their authoritarianism as the 'consensus' and label any who hold a view that does not confirm with their narrative as "extremists'. For example:

    OF COURSE IT IS: University Program Comparing Republicans, Conservative Christians to Nazis Funded in Part by DHS.

    “This terrorism task force is engaged in an active effort to demonize and eliminate Christian, conservative, and Republican organizations using federal taxpayer dollars”

    [​IMG]

    THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN THE HATE AND DIVISION TO THE NEXT LEVEL

    'The Biden administration is doling out taxpayer money through an anti-terrorism grant initiative to a university program that has explicitly lumped the Republican Party, as well as Christian and conservative groups, into the same category as Nazis'.

    We need to move away from this, and back to the rule of consensus through our elected representatives.
     
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  5. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It has become so partisan that the left and right can't even hear each other now. Ask either what the other wants and they will give a wrong answer.
     
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  6. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are clearly not interested in a reasonable discussion on the politics of the center with your tossing around every tired right wing trope.
     
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  7. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much but I already have a wife to tell me what I think.
     
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  8. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Apparently that is not enough.
     
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  9. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sorry, we weren't the ones who incited an attack on the capitol, we weren't the ones who voted for a guy who tried to overturn a legitimate election via extralegal means, that was your side that did that.

    Nothing you claim about Biden will quell that fact, and, because of it, your comment is impotent and it reveals the hypocrisy of the right.
     
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  10. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Fake News. Biden was installed in an election rigged by the FBI/CIA and the lying fake news media, in the most vicious attack on our election systems in the history of the nation.

    The middle is not impressed with what the Left has done to the country.

    And it good news, it looks like Rigged Bribed Joe isn't going to destroy the credit worthiness of the United States, thanks to a little restraint by the House GOP.
     
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  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    "fake news" = thought - terminating cliché . TTCs are mind manipulations by demagogues implanted into the minds of followers via repetition done to curtail critical thinking and designed to kill debate and dissent. Therefore, any argument using them is invalid.
    Vacuous claim offered without substantiation. Therefore, argument rejected until substantiation is offered.
    Vague generalities ("everyone knows" or 'The middle....etc...") constitute weasel words, and, as such, serve no argumentative value. Argument invalid.
    Statement has an assumed premise.
    Given that the premise hasn't been substantiated, premise is rejected until substantiation is offered.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  12. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Yes, dear.
     
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  13. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    Fake News. It's interesting that so many think that they can just keep denying what we all saw, but, the American People know that Hunter's Laptop was real. Biden coordinated with the FBI/Intelligence Community to bury it, because it exposed his corruption, in order to rig the election and install Corrupt Bribed Joe as the illegitimate president.
    Most Voters, Harvard Poll Finds, Think Hunter Biden Was Involved in ‘Influence Peddling,’ FBI ‘Not Really Investigating’

    'A Harvard Harris survey found that a large majority of Americans believe that Hunter Biden’s laptop is real, not ‘disinformation.’'

    [​IMG]
    Bribed Crooks getting an FBI Whitewash.

    59% vs 41%. We're the middle, not you, on this
    .

    And if you think "The Middle" is a 'vague generality' then why are you posting on a topic that is specifically about The Middle?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  14. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think they understand it just fine, which is why no one is pushing for communism.

    That ship has sailed, and now the authoritarian 'right' wants the government involved in criminalizing everything they don't like. Only libertarians and conservatives still pine for minimal government, but the Republican party is no longer conservative.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  15. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    If we are both against criminalizing political disagreement, we have common ground.
    A Republican Party that is operating properly is about conserving our Constitutional Liberal Democracy, and I believe that the Middle supports both of these positions, regardless of which side puts them forward.
     
  16. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    @Patricio Da Silva, you have a weird view of The Middle, which is the topic of this discussion

    And, you only now suddenly claim that very concept of 'middle' is 'vacuous' because you hold extreme views.

    [​IMG]

    56% is the middle, your minority view is extreme, and you have been peddling what Americans understand were obviously false stories. Have you considered repenting, apologizing and asking the forgiveness of those contradicted, when they were right and you were wrong?

    You're even more sideways with the vast sensible middle on Hunter's Laptop.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    That's 3/2, it's not even close.

    And on rigging elections, it's not even close

    [​IMG]
    The Middle here is the overwhelming majority and you are still pretending that Lying Adam Schiff is an apostle of truth.

    Americans aren't even shocked at the FBI's corrupt vote rigging, but The Vast Middle damn well want it to stop.

    [​IMG]

    RFK probably carries this in his heart more deeply than anyone else running. It will be interesting to see if he catches fire. I'd love to seem him win the CA Primary that his dad won the evening he was gunned down.

    That tragedy changed the trajectory of the Democrat Party, and not for the better, this would be an opportunity for them to move where they would be now if they had not been hit with that terrible attack.

    I'm glad that Secret Service protection is now extended to prominent primary candidates like RFK. Hopefully Hilary and Corrupt Joe don't have veto power to leave RFK exposed to assassination if he starts to catch traction in the primaries.

    As a card carrying member of the Vast Middle, I wonder what one of you, on the far Left end of the useful spectrum sees as the rationale for a Biden candidacy if he is trailing Donald Trump by four or five points?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  17. Space_Time

    Space_Time Well-Known Member

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    A small victory for moderation in San Francisco of all places:
     
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  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thought terminating cliché rejected
    Generalities = weasel words = not a substantive argument. Therefore, invalid argument.
    Generalities = weasel words = not a substantive argument. Therefore, invalid argument.
    Vacuous claim not substantiated. Therefore, argument rejected until substantiation is provided.
    The issue is whether or not there is hard evidence of Joe Biden wrong doing. Polls are not evidence and have no legal bearing or consequence.
    Your rants on Hunter and Joe are not relevant to the OP.

    Now that you are trying to reroute the OP's premise onto Hunter and Biden, then, at that juncture, since you are referring to specific individual's alleged specific crimes, you'll need specific evidence, as opinions from the 'middle' are of no legal consequence.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
  19. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    You're kind of repeating the same things, a lot.

    The very first line of the OP is about consensus. And all your repetition in the world does not change the fact that the Vast Middle has reached consensus on Russian Collusion and Hunter's Laptop.

    [​IMG]

    From the OP:

    'The purpose of politics is in reaching consensus....It is the debate between these two poles which fosters consensus and therefore the ability to speak freely is elemental, indeed the foundation of the entire process.'

    Deliberately burying the laptop as 'disinformation' in order to rig the election violated the sacred concept described in the OP.

    'You listen to people defend each side over and over and over and over...until you just want to say, "We get it, shut the f*** up already." How about some actual productive discussion and reaching some kind of consensus? Although it is healthy to air out ALL views regardless of positions taken, there is no place for extreme policy in civil society.'

    Hear! Hear! You may want to consider taking these thoughts to heart.

    The vast middle is largely in agreement, you asked for substantiation of this, which I provided and you just repeated the same phrases over and over and over again. Seems like an admission of defeat.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are trying to hijack the OP's premise which does not mention Hunter or Joe, now that you are hijacking it onto Hunter and Joe, note the following:

    Since you are referring to specific crimes, note that the opinion of 'the middle' has no legal consequence.

    In other words, so?
     
  21. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps, but individuals themselves are the ones who corrupt the institutions(the institution, of anything is just a building with a fancy title or label to it. By itself, it has no organic function). So really, to be a philosophical anarchist really is to remove individuals from institutions, as individuals can only naught but corrupt the institution itself. But left to their own devices, their corruption can only corrode the individual person.
     
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  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    "Consensus" is the art of the politically possible. This is the mantra of getting **** done in congress and the senate.

    Has nothing to do with your rant on Hunter's and Joe's alleged 'crimes' where the opinion of 'the middle' has no legal consequence.

    When it comes to crime, facts and the application of law to those facts are all that matters, which is the domain of law, not public opinion.

    Now, can your brain grasp this?

    Now, if you want to hijack this thread onto Hunter and Biden's alleged 'crimes', you'll need to list the specific crimes, and link to the hard evidence that proves your claim.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
  23. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    Such as for example the new debt deal agreed to in Congress. I'm glad the President put his big boy pants on, and gave some reasonable concessions(and the Republicans did as well) and we can start on the path of making a fiscal government that can serve the interests of all law abiding citizens regardless of race, creed, nationality or politics.
     
  24. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

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    I explained why I thought you particularly would benefit from understanding the consensus of the middle and referred to two very specific political issues of great import at the moment. But, if you think such a discussion is a thread hijack, why are you continuing it here, rather than on a thread that you consider more appropriate? If you object to discussing it here, I'm happy to drop it, here, and continue it on the thread of your choosing.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023
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  25. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    The fallacy of your philosophy has something to do with that institutions are comprised of individuals who are organized and financed for a purpose.

    Now, if you want to give power to individuals who are not organized, a loose ad hoc consortium of cash poor philosophers whose brains are on kale, banana nut bread, frappuccinos poetry and philosophy who can't figure out who the boss is, or that they even need one, their 'power' will easily be usurped by other individuals who are organized, structured, and well financed.

    Therefore, what you propose to exist, cannot, in fact, ever exist due to this principle. Power flows to the funded and organized. Anarchies are fantasy, the luxury of tenured linguistic and philosophy professors. (Noam Chomsky, the prime example). Now, please understand that I have nothing but respect for such persons, we need philosophers. They are great for things like 'hope', but not for getting the trains to arrive on time.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2023

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