They need to tax the poor/middle class more!

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Aquarius, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    the rich buy more stuff-they pay more taxes. how is your definition of taxes not stealing but a sales tax is? your posts are not only silly, they are inconsistent. I get the fact you hate the wealthy
     
  2. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    GARBAGE. Marginal propensity to consume declines with both income and wealth. Moreover, unlike working people, the rich can just choose to do their consuming in other countries where it is not taxed, thus paying no tax at all, anywhere. That is obviously your intention: you want everyone to be forced to subsidize the privileged, and you don't want the privileged to be required to repay any of what they take from the community. It's just monstrous, towering, sociopathic greed for unearned wealth. Not rocket science.
    Very simple: if the privileged repaid the community for what they are taking from the community, that would be a voluntary, market-based, beneficiary-pay, value-for-value transaction, not a compulsory payment unrelated to benefits received. The privileged, like you, are merely accustomed to being legally entitled to take without paying, so now when I suggest that you should rightly pay for what you are taking, you act all butt-hurt and accuse me of envy.

    If you were accustomed to being legally entitled to take bread from the bakery without paying for it, it would be exactly the same: when I proposed that instead of taking bread without paying for it, you should rightly pay for the bread you take, you would accuse me of being envious of your free bread privilege, claim that I was proposing to steal your bread, call the baker a parasite who wants to live at your expense, blah, blah, blah -- all the same false, absurd, disingenuous, and evil filth you have been spewing for this whole thread.
    No they aren't. See above. You just choose not to know the indisputable facts that prove they are completely consistent, because you have already realized that they also prove your beliefs are false and evil.
    I get the fact that you have no facts or logic to offer, which is why your "arguments" consist of nothing but evil, vicious, disingenuous, and unsupported ad hominem filth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2023
  3. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    BFD. you hate the rich. nothing more nothing less. I tire of envy based nonsense camouflaged by grandiose claims of fairness. The rich buy far more meaning they pay far more for their citizenship benefits than those who only consume necessities because those are exempt in a NST
     
  4. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    <yawn> That is unsupported, disingenuous, and evil ad hominem filth, nothing more, nothing less. You have no arguments, no facts or logic to offer, so you just spew a hatestream of false and despicable personal accusations that you hope will deflect readers' attention from the toxic, evil, greed-based political agenda you promote.

    The greed of the welfare chiseler for unearned wealth is to the greed of the landowner as the brightness of the moon is to the brightness of the sun.
    <yawn> I tire of false, unsupported, and contentless personal accusations that camouflage an agenda completely consumed by monstrous, towering, sociopathic greed for unearned wealth, combined with a total inability to address the relevant facts and logic.
    No, I already proved that claim is false, remember? They will just choose to do their consuming in other countries where it is not taxed.
    "Citizenship benefits"?? The greedy, privileged, parasitic super-duper uber-rich could not care less about citizenship benefits. They only care about their ownership benefits: the government-provided, tax-funded welfare subsidy giveaways they pocket at everyone else's expense by owning privileges like land titles, IP monopolies, bank licenses, etc., and the corporations that own them.
    It couldn't matter less that necessities are exempt. Roughly half of the burden of any broad-based tax like a VAT, NST, or personal income tax is shifted onto others according to the relevant elasticities of supply and demand. Google "tax incidence" and start reading. So your vaunted NST will impoverish all the working people who have less opportunity and lower wages because the NST discourages domestic consumption -- but not the rich's luxury consumption in other countries. About the only tax more unjust, economically harmful and evil than a broad-based sales tax like NST would be a poll tax.
     
  5. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    OH THE DRAMA. if you want to be a citizen you need to pay for your governmental services. pure and simple
     
  6. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really? So why would I pay for your governmental services that forcibly abrogate my rights for your unearned profit, hmmmm?

    Pure and simple is right.
     
  7. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    what rights do you claim you have? I think you have a rather uninformed concept of the term
     
  8. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Same as anyone else: life, liberty, and property in the fruits of my labor. And when, in the course of securing and reconciling the equal individual rights of all citizens to those things it is necessary for government to abrogate them, I have a right to just compensation for what is being taken from me, same as anyone else.
    No, you just want your privileges to trump my -- and everyone else's -- rights. You want government to force me to pay for the government-issued and -enforced privileges that forcibly abrogate my rights for your unearned profit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  9. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    your definition of privileges is rejected as silly. I don't need the government to do what I claim. You seem to pretend you have more rights or powers than you really do. "the fruits of your labor" mean nothing unless others value them
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  10. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It identifies the relevant facts of objective physical reality, which terrify you because they prove your beliefs are false and evil. You will say, do, and believe anything whatever to evade that fact.
    You most certainly and indisputably do. You need government to issue and enforce your privileges, because people would not put up with you violating their rights if you didn't have government force on your side.
    I am aware that government violates my rights for the unearned profit of the privileged, like you.
    GARBAGE. Others have nothing to do with it because it is enough that I value the fruits of my labor.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2023
  11. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    you just make up new parameters and then complain when society doesnt recognize them
     
  12. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    How does this make them the most greedy

    • In 2019, taxpayers filed 148.3 million tax returns, reported earning nearly $11.9 trillion in adjusted gross income, and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
    • The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).
    • The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers fell to 20.1 percent from 20.9 percent in 2018. The top 1 percent’s share of federal individual income taxes paid fell to 38.8 percent from 40.1 percent.
    • The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
    • The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).
    • The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced average tax rates across income groups.
    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

    What would make them not the most greedy, what numbers would have to be achieved so that you would consider them not greedy?
     
  13. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    We do tax all income as income and the lower 50% pay virtually nothing.

    upload_2023-1-9_10-32-45.png
    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

    How much more a share of income taxes paid should the top groups pay in order for you to be satisfied? Give me some numbers.
     
  14. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Every time tax law is tweeked the rich make out hugely while the rest of us benefit far, far less.

    Reason me this: Those for whom our economic system has benefitted most should be willing to pay the most for the system that so benefitted them.
     
  15. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I asked you

    How does this make them the most greedy?

    • In 2019, taxpayers filed 148.3 million tax returns, reported earning nearly $11.9 trillion in adjusted gross income, and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
    • The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).
    • The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers fell to 20.1 percent from 20.9 percent in 2018. The top 1 percent’s share of federal individual income taxes paid fell to 38.8 percent from 40.1 percent.
    • The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
    • The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).
    • The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced average tax rates across income groups.
    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

    What would make them not the most greedy, what numbers would have to be achieved so that you would consider them not greedy?

    Until I know what it is you want what would satisfy you I can't continue a discussion no the matter.
     
  16. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Snow job coverup.

    The wealth of the top 1% was more than $60 trillion or more than 42% of all wealth. And that doesn't count the estimated hidden $21-$32 trillion in secret offshore accounts. - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-offshore-wealth-idUSBRE86L03U20120722

    The bottom 50% owns 2.37% of all wealth.

    AND, new EPI research shows CEO pay has soared by 1,460% since 1978 while workers' pay rose by 18.1% during the same time period.
    https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2021/
     
  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Wow. You pretend it’s not clear? LOL!! The top richest people (top 1%) have 42% of all wealth in the US not even counting their trillions in hidden offshore accounts, and we frequently see them celebrating additional huge gains from tax-cutting measures and from price-fixing which has produced this current extreme inflation and huge boosts it gives to their wealth.
     
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    So you don't think people should have, or society should recognize, citizens' equal individual rights to life, liberty, and property in the fruits of their labor. Thought not. That's probably why your "arguments" are indistinguishable from slave owners' fallacious and disingenuous "arguments" against emancipation.
     
  19. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    See above.

    And this isn’t the real problem anyway. The real problem is what such wealth does to the rest of us politically when their power and influence results in policies that they design (see A.L.E.C.) for their personal advantage on top of their personal advantages.

    To stop that influence we would have to reduce their wealth and apply confiscatory tax brackets again.
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Both are in come and taxed as income and the proper term is earned income, as from wages, and unearned as from investment and other sources. Both income and both taxed.
     
  22. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    We don't tax wealth at the federal level we tax income so don't conflate the two.

    This is about income and the taxes placed up it and the results which you say is greedy on behalf of the top earners.

    Try again

    How does this make them the most greedy?

    • In 2019, taxpayers filed 148.3 million tax returns, reported earning nearly $11.9 trillion in adjusted gross income, and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.
    • The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 25.6 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than seven times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (3.5 percent).
    • The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers fell to 20.1 percent from 20.9 percent in 2018. The top 1 percent’s share of federal individual income taxes paid fell to 38.8 percent from 40.1 percent.
    • The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.
    • The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.8 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.2 percent).
    • The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act reduced average tax rates across income groups.
    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/latest-federal-income-tax-data/

    What would make them not the most greedy, what numbers would have to be achieved so that you would consider them not greedy?

    Until I know what it is you want what would satisfy you I can't continue a discussion no the matter.

    Well it's the one you brought up and this thread is about taxes so let's stick with that for now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023
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  23. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    So the source of wealth is a mystery to you?
     
  24. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nope is the difference between wealth and income a mystery to you along with our tax system?

    We don't tax wealth at the federal level we tax income so don't conflate the two.

    This is about income and the taxes placed up it and the results which you say is greedy on behalf of the top earners.

    So back to the numbers what numbers would show the high earners are not greedy by your measure?
     
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    they are not taxed the same, which is what we were talking about.... a flat tax for ALL income, where all income is taxed the same

    labored income vs unlabored income
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2023

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