Ukraine and NATO

Howdy,

Just a few quick thoughts about Ukraine, Russia and NATO.
So, the West demonstrated that it is ready to defend Ukraine from Russia no matter what. That is to say, defend Ukraine form Russia even if the country is not in NATO. Then what's the point of Ukraine joining NATO in the first place?
Moreover, if Ukraine is not trying to join NATO, Russia is OK with that and will sit still. Problem solved.

So, why the pressure to get Ukraine into NATO and potentially start all kinds of trouble with Russia?

 

I must have missed that. Last I heard the NATO countries made it pretty well known they were not going to defend Ukraine.

 

What were you thinking all the circus of the last two moths was about?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-60136457

 

Whether NATO should defend Ukraine, but again they said they're not going to.

Unless you count threatening sanctions as defending from an invasion. Which obviously I don't.

 

The only country that seriously talks about Ukraine being in NATO is Russia.

 

Well, that's the thing - Russia doesn't want nukes on their doorstep in Ukraine. Like the U.S. didn't want ones in Cuba at the time.
That's all the fuss about.

 

That’s the most disingenuous argument. In the 1960’s you had to drop a nuke out of the sky from a plane which means you needed a base relatively close by your adversary in order to drop a nuke on them. That’s why we were unhappy with him having nukes in Cuba.

However today we can drop a nuke on him from literally all the way across the planet. We don’t need nor would we have nukes on his doorstep in the Ukraine if they joined NATO.

That’s nothing more than a ridiculous excuse for Russia to justify invading a country and annexing its territory.

But you already know that.

 

Well, from the Ukrainian border to Moscow is about 300 miles. That's probably a 1 min hang time of the missiles, compared to 30 min, if fired from the US. I should be pretty obvious which situation would be preferable to Russia. So, yes, the comparison to the Cuba crisis is very much a relevant one.

 

Not really.
You are forgetting about the submarines. Russia could be shot at from Baltic and Black seas. Similar geographic proximity.

 

Biden and the media, plus a few war hawks seem to talk about Russia/Ukraine 24/7. I have not heard a single word or threat to Russia from the European leaders or the secretary general of NATO. Europe needs to step up and be heard loud and clear. The USA should keep our troops on our own soil. This is a European problem.

 

Some Western nations are willing to take certain steps to defend Ukraine from Russian aggression but that is limited in both scale and scope. Significantly, they're unlikely to provide actual fighting forces in the event of any conflict and anything Western nations do there will be individual and unilateral. Plenty of NATO members currently don't have any significant involvement in Ukraine (and would probably prefer not to).

The core point of NATO is that if a member is attacked, it is treated as an attack against all and NATO forces would automatically take collective military measures in response. The strength of the treaty is the certainly of collective action (it hasn't been tested of course, but that is the principle).

There is no immediate pressure for Ukraine to join NATO but it is an option in the future. Russian demands aren't that Ukraine don't move to join now but that it never joins at all, something NATO in unwilling (and arguable unable) to agree to. Ultimately, Russia wants to regain control of Ukraine, directly or indirectly and this is just one play in that overall aim.

 

Ukraine has never been invited to join NATO. This is simply about Putin trying to rebuild the old USSR.

BTW, I think Ukraine SHOULD be invited to join NATO. But they haven't.

 

Vlad is the aggressor, and keeps moving the goal posts around. Let's not lose sight of this in the bigger picture.

 

You are aware that Russia now lives under capitalism, right?

 

How long would it take from Poland? You act like without Ukraine, the US has to launch missiles from Virginia or Alaska.

 

I meant territorially, of course. However, the authoritarian aspect is not too distant today from the old communist system.

 

The rest of Europe thinks better of us than we do:

 

Or a mafia-style kleptocratic version of it...

 

Sounds like you know the answer and just framed it in the form of a question.

Why the pressure to get Ukraine into NATO? Start all kinds of trouble with Russia.

 

Ukraine happens to be one of the largest suppliers of gas but even more, a supplier of wheat.
If Russia takes hold of Ukraine, it holds a huge control over European/Western economies.

Ukraine isn't in NATO probably because not only was there an agreement signed to promise neither side would demand Ukraine take sides (Belarus Agreement?) but that joining NATO would undoubtedly result in a Russian conflict.
I worry that Putin is getting older...less patient, more pressed for time.

 

When you say "the west" is ready to defend Ukraine. You sure about that? Seems like this is only our concern.

There are NATO countries that border on Russia. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Norway and Poland. Russia has fought wars over that area in the northwest called Novogrod. Ukraine would not be unique.

Ukraine and Belarus do have a more significant historical significance and Putin is obsessed with those countries being militarily allied with Russia. Belarus already is.

I agree. Form a general agreement that the Ukraine will not be allowed in NATO and Putin becomes less obsessed with it.

 

Really? I love this because people say similar things about Afghanistan. How is the poorest most corrupt country in Europe essential to Western European economies? They can buy oil and gas from us which is what Trump was pushing for. They can buy wheat from us. Why are these super poor countries suddenly so important to the world economy?

 

It's funny how backward libos think. Trump implored Nato countries to spend more on military and to buy more fossil fuels from us but he was supposed to be pro Putin?

 

Ukraine only transits Russian gas to Western Europe, as far as I know. On the wheat side you're correct.

 

Well, it's all the media is blabbering about. "Unseen sanctions", "more than Putin can imagine", "severe repercussions", Crimea sanctions will pale in comparison". is all I hear day and night. It doesn't mean they will nuke Russia but it sounds very serious.

P.S. Finland is not in NATO.