US/UK/Australia sign defence alliance against China

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Reasonablerob, Mar 15, 2023.

  1. Reasonablerob

    Reasonablerob Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2023
  2. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As an Australian I suddenly have a lot more respect for Paul Keating.

    This program's stated cost (before blowouts) is $15,000 per man, woman and child in Australia. That's a heck of a lot of money. What could the Chinese even do that compares to that?

    Additionally, the submarines are not even a sure thing against Chinese aggression. Armed with conventional weaponry only they have extremely limited use. In any case where they invade the Australian h

    We should have obtained around 30 nukes instead, or at least in addition. Then you are completely untouchable. Nobody wants their 30 largest cities nuked, not even China.

    The real threat from China is that we'll voluntarily adopt their domestic policy on social credit systems, mass surveillance in all major cities, and internet censorship.

    It seems we are increasingly a vassal of the United States, a nation which I like and respect but do not want to be subservient to.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
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  3. USVet

    USVet Well-Known Member

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    The subs are extremely strategic as they can block shipments to Communist China as well as help defend Taiwan or other AP countries.
     
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  4. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    We have multiple reasons for doing this though apparently we have been doing extremely well with the noisy old Collins class Subs. But at the moment we have sod all expertise in anything nuclear (we have ONE count it ONE reactor and that one make medical implants etc. I have it on hearsay that some young Navy recruits are lining up to learn this so they can get the expertise
     
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  5. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I see this as a good thing for all involved.
     
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  6. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I love listening to Keating.

    For those not aware he is an prime minister. Here's the interview.

    https://www.youtube.com/live/VmgxAoa1n-8?feature=share


    I think Keating misses the point that this is about making friends. He was always about Australian Independence and national sovereignty, so his stance doesn't really surprised me.
     
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  7. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    A shorter take. I don't think he is right, but maybe he is right... Time will tell.

     
  8. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He's always been skeptical of the US, and wanted to move us to engage more with Asia. I'm not sure I entirely agree with him, and I certainly don't agree with him on most domestic issues, but politics makes strange bedfellows, and he is absolutely spot on here.

    If China invaded us tomorrow they would struggle to cause $15,000 in damages to every man woman and child. We are, unfortunately, a puppet of the US. The old US used to believe in "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none". Unfortunately this has long ago gone out the window, and we as a middle power are stuck between neoliberals and neoconservatives (both virulent war hawks) who have captured our governments. The yanks are in largely the same position, though they occasionally push back against this.

    Look at the last week - Peter Dutton and Penny Wong looked like carbon copies of each other. They only disagree on whether the government should take your money and give it to corporations, or take your money and give it to bludgers, and a variety of bullshit culture war issues designed to distract you from what matters.

    We have probably the most defensible country in the world - we are surrounded on all sides by a moat that's at least 200km wide, and once they get to the mainland they have to march 3000km to the nearest major city. It's just a joke what the Coalition and ALP are doing. A bad joke. Neither of them should ever be in power again.

    We are likely to adopt much of the domestic policy of China in the coming decades anyway. Mass surveillance, social credit systems, widespread censorship. The enemy is within, not without.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
  9. USVet

    USVet Well-Known Member

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    Australia is a major uranium producer and they have many scientists so it would be easy to build nuclear weapons.
     
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  10. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I was a big Keating fan once. Voted the governments he was in at every opportunity, so I voted for him twice as PM. Sadly over the past 15 or so years his entries into public life have been increasingly pointless. Mostly they have been to remind everyone tha the invented superannuation, but now we get handwaving about China's human rights record and personal insults directed at members of his own party who are just trying to govern. The actually had the politeness to privately brief him on this, and he responded with a massive tantrum. In short, he has become a cranky old man yelling at clouds.

    Personally I am sick of ex-PMs farting out every little thought that ferments in their bitter little brains. Turnbull, Rudd & Tony the pedophile lover are f***ing disgraces. The only one I have any respect for is Gillard, who had more reason than most to want to tell her side, but has generally stayed quiet & done something useful with her life.

    There are aspects of this deal that are good and aspects that are contestable, but we don't need someone who hasn't held elected office in the 21st century hectoring us about it.
     
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  11. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Remind me, weren't you the guy who kept complaining that he hatred Australia so much he wanted to move to the US? Now suddenly you want to get all patriotic on us and stand up to the Great Satan? Yeah, sure. Totally credible.
     
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  12. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I can't speak to all Keating's entries into public life recently, but I think this one is extremely pertinent. AUKUS is not only unchallenged by the media, the media (left-leaning) have hyped up, if not fabricated, a close-future war scenario with China. I know it isn't necessarily so, but Keating seems to the sole challenging voice out there.

    I also find his lack of political correctness refreshing - and many of his comments about how Labour operates its foreign policy, as well as the cost-benefit analysis of subs eye-openers. I thought he hit a home run too, with the congress report effectively saying that China's threat seems to be that they want a bit of space around their door-step. I don't necessarily agree with it all, however there is no real debate policy-wise regarding China.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
  13. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Sorry that is just not correct. I consume enough 'left leaning' (or in some eyes centrist/right leaning) media to know that is just wrong. I have read multiple articles other than Keating's spray that have been critical of the decision. Generally these have actually been reasoned arguments rather than the tantrum Keating threw. Would you like some links?

    What 'political correctness' is he lacking and is it remotely relevant? I'm not sure criticizing China for its abysmal human rights record is 'political correctness', but he is certainly lacking that. I would also point out that he was the deputy PM in a government that was happy enough to commit Australian forces to the first US/Iraq war. He didn't seem to do a lot of critiquing of the alliance during his 13 years as one of the most (if not the most) powerful politicians in the nation. Like so many former PMs he seems great at telling people to do things he didn't actually do. Like I said, its been almost 30 years since he exited public life. Time to retire gracefully on his substantial pension.
     
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  14. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think China is a different China of yesteryear. And I think it's probably wise to have strategic alliances beyond Asia. But perhaps the money is better spent than on 3 rather large submarines.

    Hopefully the spin-off training and industries will be of domestic economic benefit. Whether this counterbalance potential drop in tourism and long-distance education (China our biggest market) is yet to be seen.
     
  15. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sometimes "straight to it" gets the point across better. He is the ex-PM, so his words carry some weight.

    Sure - please share your most pertinent links. Surprised that you didn't already to bolster your point.
    China's human rights abuses have not stopped us exporting to China with alacrity - and inviting record tourists and students (and their cash) to our shores. I think this is an aside point.

    Yes, I understand that you think Keating should shut it. You may argue that point from any angle that you like. I found his analysis, if not comprehensive, to be refreshing.
     
  16. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised you didn't see them the media. A day of surprises for all I guess.

    This list from the Age is very incomplete, but plenty to show that critical perspectives have been easily accessible. These are articles that are broadly 'critical', I haven't generally included articles that are 'balanced' but include criticism.

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-change-its-mind-on-whim-20230316-p5cskq.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...garrett-unloads-on-aukus-20230317-p5ct4r.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...uld-tempt-nuclear-attack-20230315-p5csh0.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...conomy-can-sustain-aukus-20230316-p5cslm.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...-by-the-time-they-arrive-20230314-p5cs3t.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/world/asi...-in-fact-we-may-never-be-20230309-p5cqqc.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/world/asi...cipe-for-deadly-conflict-20230219-p5clqo.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ility-and-should-be-sunk-20230117-p5cd3y.html

    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...oncerns-about-aukus-pact-20230206-p5ciaf.html

    I guess we are impressed by different things.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
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  17. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm sure the spin-off will be of benefit for politically connected bureaucrats and 20,000 workers - but we are a nation of 25 million people, who will now be $15,000 worse off each.
     
  18. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The world is nuanced, guy.
     
  19. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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    Thanks. Nope I didn't see any of these opinion pieces baring one earlier in the year. Admittedly, I have been on holidays for the past week.

    There was no trouble coming across Keating's account though.

    I'm not sure that creating an impression is the same as 'being impressed'. I thought Keating distilled some of the main issues very effectively. And again, none of these opinion piece writers are important people. There is nobody important in Australia challenging this. I wouldn't call those opinion pieces debate. The closest that we have is an ex p.m. from the 90s.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
  20. Melb_muser

    Melb_muser Well-Known Member Donor

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  21. George Bailey

    George Bailey Well-Known Member

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    All we need now is an assassination and the world war is on. MANIA.
    Militarism
    Alliances
    Nationalism
    Imperialism
    Assassination

    "Ain't no time to wonder why whoopee were all gonna die."
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
  22. flyboy56

    flyboy56 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They just increase the chances of a nuclear war. The US has enough subs to protect Australia.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023
  23. UntilNextTime

    UntilNextTime Well-Known Member

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    3 subs for either 268 or 368 billion dollars is a crap deal for Aus.
     
  24. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    There was no trouble coming across the pieces I posted. I just saw them when I read the paper.

    So now only the opinions you are intersted in count as 'debate'? Sorry, complete BS. You don't get to define a debate out of existence just because you were too inattentive to notice it. BTW, those are just a small part of the debate.

    This has already passed the point of being productive, so I'll leave you to it.
     
  25. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 19, 2023

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