Viral load

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Greenleft, Sep 27, 2021.

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  1. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    So there is the perfectly appropriate question people are asking that is: If I am fully vaccinated, why do I still need to wear a mask and maintain social distancing?

    Sanjay Gupta explained it best on CNN a few weeks ago. I wish I could locate the clip. :-? Tell you what... you can call me fake news if you wish or if you don't believe me, consult a medical expert (somebody with a degree in medicine)

    Anyway, Fauci mentioned variants during a Senate hearing with Rand Paul, but as of these keystrokes, the vaccines work on all variants.

    What Sanjay Gupta said was that even if you are fully vaccinated, you can still carry the virus (a viral load) in your mouth and nose and spread it. What vaccinations do is help your body fight back faster against the virus which stops you from having to stay in bed, get hospitalized on a ventilator or even prematurely die.

    There is no guarantee that vaccines will protect you for life. Their VERY SPECIFIC purpose is to prevent you from getting a fever and breathing problems as well as temporary immunity.

    With enough people under temporary immunity, it will stop the spread.
     
  2. fullmetaljack

    fullmetaljack Well-Known Member

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    To add a little to that bit, since your immune system has a "memory", you aren't awash in antibodies at all times. In fact, the amount of antibodies in your blood before an invasion(infection, as in when you receive a dose of COVID, for example) can be fairly low. Once the immune system recognizes the enemy, it starts producing more antibodies to fight the invasion. During that time, COVID is doing it's thing: invading cells and replicating itself as fast as it can. It is during this time when you can spread the infection to others. The infection's production is higher than the body's production of antibodies. In a normal, vaccinated immune system, this changes quickly as both the production of antibodies goes up and the produced antibodies start neutralizing COVID viruses. Production of COVID goes down and the production of antibodies goes up.
    A person can continue to exhale COVID virus but it is now de-activated. That is why a PCR test will still show positive even after the battle has been won. PCR tests for the presence of COVID genetic material, not whether it is active or not. Since it takes the immune system a while to "realize" the battle has been won, antibody levels in the blood an persist for some time. This is how the blood test for the presence of COVID antibodies can indicate that someone was infected and recovered. If the test is quantitative, you can even tell roughly how long ago the person was infected.

    The Delta variant is more infectious because it is more efficient at replicating itself, creating a higher viral load in a shorter period of time. This makes it easier to be passed to another person, even by a vaccinated person, because there is always that period of time when the body is ramping up production of antibodies.
     
  3. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    I'm just wondering what you mean when you say "With enough people under temporary immunity, it will stop the spread", as you seem to acknowledge that the vaccines don't really have a thing to do with immunity, only decreasing symptoms if you get the virus. I'm sick of the left blaming the unvaccinated for spreading the virus when the science shows that vaccinated people spread the virus and herd immunity from the vaccines is not possible with the Delta variant because vaccinated people spread the virus because the vaccines do nothing to stop the spread, only reduce symptoms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  4. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How will "enough people under temporary immunity" "stop the spread" if they "can still carry the virus (a viral load) in your mouth and nose and spread it"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  5. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Good of you to mention the Delta variant. In hindsight I wished more people voluntarily got the vaccine and that more people had access to vaccines pre-Delta variant

    I would imagine the the virus spends less time in a host's body that is fully vaccinated and hence less time to spread the virus, but a medical expert can correct me there if I'm wrong. It also gives less exposure to medical workers who have to manage people who are put on ventilators. Vaccines are one tool that must be used in combination with masks and social distancing. Like masks, it's a mutual thing. It won't work unless everyone does it. Masks protect others, while the vaccine protects yourself.

    The tragedy of challenging vaccines is that getting just about everyone vaccinated is actually plausible. Stay-at-home orders or lockdowns slow the spread but won't work as well as vaccines because you still need to leave the house from time to time as well as the need for essential workers. The only way a lockdown would work is to get EVERYBODY that is every man, woman and child on planet Earth to enter doomsday bunkers for about 4 people each with 3 weeks worth of preserved food. Then and only then would the virus be completely eradicated. Need I say more about how that won't happen?

    To tell you the truth, I am frustrated that people are telling me I might need to get more than 2 jabs because even with the jabs I am STILL denied the benefit of travelling abroad without those horrible 3 week prison sentences they call quarantines. But If I'm shown pictures of old ladies and I am told "You don't want to kill grandma do you?" I'll line up and get as many jabs as the men in blue (law enforcement) demand.
     
  6. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well Im glad we can agree that virus is not going to be completely eradicated. But since covid is here to stay, that begs the question- how many boosters can we ethically mandate and how often? Apparently, each one comes with a small risk of a serious side effect. Even when the risk is small, increases in frequency still increase the rate of occurrence. There is thus a point at which the vaccines do become more of risk to life and health than the virus... it might be every month or every day, but would you keep taking the vaccine even if 'the men in blue' demanded that you cross that point? Would you take a weekly booster forever if someone was showing you pictures of dead grannies? What about daily? Is there a point at which you would say 'this isn't worth it'?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  7. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Very good point. There is no definitive answer sadly.

    I would imagine that it would eventually be a yearly thing like the seasonal flu shots. By then it MIGHT be manageable that not everyone needs to be vaccinated the same way that there are enough willing people to enter military service that conscription becomes unnecessary.

    Getting a yearly shot so I can get drunk at a New Year's eve party would be worth it. Any more and I'll enter 'The Resistance'.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  8. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There will be no herd immunity. This virus is able to reinfect people who had it before, and to infect vaccinated people, which entirely defeats the hope for herd immunity.

    The specific purpose of the vaccine is not to prevent you from having "a fever and breathing problems." It's to prevent you from needing hospitalization, and dying.

    Yes, of course this is not the kind of vaccine that confers lifetime immunity, for a virus that mutates quite a lot. Still, the vaccines are useful to dramatically decrease the number of hospitalizations and deaths from Covid-19.
     
  9. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    There it is; the problem isn't it?

    I'm not against vaccines at all. It's that the amount of vaccines I need to get without getting very much positive reinforcement. I STILL need to quarantine when travelling, I STILL need to keep my mask on. I STILL cannot go to that bar. The evening news on television STILL uses apocalyptic language.

    Where is the motivation to get more jabs?
     
  10. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The motivation is that this is a darn dangerous virus that we still need to be protected against. The vaccine is the best protection but not 100%. And this virus doesn't kill a large proportion of those infected but has a high potential for permanent organ damage among the survivors, which is why you should protect yourself and your loved ones as best as you can until this is (relatively) over.
     
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  11. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    Stopping variants from forming is a fool's errand. It can't be done. As far as I know, every variant we have seen has actually originated in another country. So, if they US had had a 100% vaccination rate the Delta variant, which originated in India, would still have come here and we would still be where we are at. And, I don't approve of forcing, coercing, intimidating, bullying, or lying to people to get vaccinated because 8000 people, just in the US alone, have died shortly after being vaccinated and tens of thousands of others have had severe adverse medical reactions to the vaccines.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  12. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    An exhaled virus is not deactivated. The immune system stops a virus from attaching to a cell.
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    agree, the rest of the world matters too, but had all American been vaccinated, the Delta variant would not of been as much a concern as it has been, as hospitals would not be over stressed
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  14. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    Over 8000 people have died shortly after vaccination in the US alone and tens of thousands in the US have had severe adverse reactions to the vaccines. That doesn't seem like something that we should be forcing people to do. And, since the vaccinated spread the virus as much as the unvaccinated do, then why are we blaming the unvaccinated for the spread of the virus and discriminating against them when the vaccinated also spread the virus?
     
  15. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    That's all true, but it would help if people got more positive reinforcement. I don't want to get the jab multiple times and have nothing to show for it except my parents (both turning 65 next year) getting a few more golden years. Short of the good news that I can get drunk at a New Year's eve party, perhaps if the nurse giving me the jab dropped a brick of cash into my hand...

    I've got the Astra Zeneca vaccine twice now. Now I am being told it is my duty to get the boosters and perhaps another brand of vaccine (Moderna?).

    I may sound very cruel here, but more time with my parents is hardly a prize in a world of quarantines, masks, no bars and regular jabs.
     
  16. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Yes, you would imagine.

    You would imagine with an imagination stoked by 20 months of fear-mongering propaganda delivered by Fauci & Friends.

    All the best to you.
     
  17. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We don't have the AstraZeneca approved here in the United States so I kind of stopped looking at new developments on it, beyond what I had said in my State of the Vaccines thread. I seem to understand that in the UK people who had two doses of the AZ are being encouraged to seek an mRNA vaccine booster, such as the Moderna or the Pfizer, given that it seems like the AZ is a bit less effective.

    Yes, we will probably need at least a yearly booster like it is recommended for the Flu shot. Even if we end up recommending a booster every 6 months, I personally don't think it's a big burden, and it beats the alternative of getting the virus and/or passing it on to a loved one. What is so bothersome about going to your primary care doctor once every 6 or 12 months for a little jab? People already do it yearly for the flu shot.

    As for your relationship with your parents, I can't speak about it. Families are complicated. I'm sorry that you don't seem to enjoy much the company of your folks. I guess it happens.

    Well, the point of these vaccines is that eventually you'll be able to go unmasked to bars. I don't think it's feasible right now with the threat of Delta, especially here in the USA where it is still very active, but I seem to understand that the Delta surge is over in the UK so maybe you'll get your wishes sooner than we will, here.
     
  18. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Just to be clear, I WILL obey the Covid-19 rules imposed on me by my government: Indonesia. If the men in uniform carrying the badges tell me to get a jab every 6 months, I will do it.

    What I WON'T do is be shamed into getting the jab every 6 months without some kind of compensation. Somebody telling me that I'm a granny killer (that is infecting the most vulnerable in society) won't work on me. I guess I'm the one who farted in the elevator.
     
  19. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The issue shouldn't be to shame you. The issue should be, you should get recommended shots in order to get well protected from a dangerous disease (and that's, by the way, the rationale for ALL vaccines, for polio, TB, measles, hep C, tetanus, etc., etc., not just Covid-19).

    What other incentive do you need or want? The best incentive, is to protect your own health (and allow you to enjoy activities that would otherwise be more dangerous; like you said, going to bars, etc.). Do you want to get paid to be vaccinated or something?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2021
  20. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    Well first I'll address getting paid to be vaccinated; It would be nice considering that I have to report to a clinic and wait in a waiting room when I'd rather be somewhere else. It's one reason I'm out of religion!

    Here was my understanding of vaccines pre Covid-19: Yes, people got regular flu shots. I didn't because I'm not particularly vulnerable to the seasonal flu for hospitalization. I understood that as a child, you got vaccines and some boosters (which I did get) and later as an adult I no longer needed to go for more. Additionally, if you are travelling to some countries in Africa, you needed to be vaccinated for some tropical diseases. No problem there as I only travelled to Egypt twice.

    Now I am being told that I need to get a regular jab every 6 months in ADDITION to lifestyle changes like masks. I'll be frank here: this new normal for me is not worth living in. All I get is shame for harming people who are more vulnerable to hospitalization. Also, you can only help people who want to be helped as therapists always say. At this point (after getting my 2 jabs) I don't want to be helped.

    The bars and travel without quarantines are enough motivation for me to get the jab. But the question is: when will I get those things? I will not get the jab every 6 months for 10 years WITHOUT those rewards.

    Let me give you an analogy: Say somebody tells you that you will be gunned down in 30 days. You have ONE alternative: spend the rest of your productive years of life in the confines of a nursing home. I'd take the gun.
     
  21. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    First, correcting a typo: I meant Hep B, not C, because there is no vaccine for Hep C. Unimportant for this discussion but I'm a bit perfectionistic so the typo bothered me, haha.

    -------

    Only you can establish your priorities and your lifestyle. Doctors (I'm one) can only provide advice. The decision is (usually) left to the patient (unless there is a governmental mandate that overrides that; I'm not very fond of mandates, by the way).

    I find your analogy a bit harsh. So, getting the jab every 6 months in a quick visit to your Health Department or your physician's office or local pharmacy, is akin to spending the productive years of your life in the confines of a nursing home? Whoa. That's hyperbolic.

    You don't seem to want it, but if you do care for some (free) advice, here it goes:

    You seem to be a young, healthy, and pleasure-oriented (hedonistic) male. Nothing wrong with that (very common in people your age). So you see the need for a jab every six months as an infringement on your pleasure-seeking lifestyle.

    But you need to consider this:

    This virus is extremely tricky and dangerous. People have a false sense of security when they are young and healthy, because this virus tends to only kill a relatively small percentage of older and sicker people. The young ones feel invincible. Well, big mistake, because while this is true of the odds of the virus killing you (very small), it is not true of the virus not killing you, but permanently damaging (in a non-fatal but burdensome way) your vital organs.

    See for example the famous study done at the Ohio State University (I don't have the link on me right now and no time to go fetch it during this short lunch break, but I posted that link multiple times in my posting history). They looked at cardiac function in their ultra-healthy, ultra-fit young student athletes who had mild and even asymptomatic cases of Covid-19, from which they all recovered apparently fine... guess again. They found in 30% of the young athletes, heart damage!

    This virus has a high propensity for causing one or more major organ damage (to various degrees, less or more serious, less or more permanent) in at least 1 in 3 people who survive it (and that does include young and previously healthy people). They include chronic heart inflammation (myocarditis, occurring thousands of times more often that the risk of mild and transient myocarditis for the vaccine in males younger than 30), "long Covid" with persistent symptoms in 27% of survivors, lung fibrosis with chronic shortness of breath, chronic encephalitis with cognitive symptoms (brain fog), kidney insufficiency, destruction of beta cells in the pancreas causing new onset diabetes, and a propensity to develop coagulation issues resulting in deep venous thrombosis and strokes.

    So, this virus is way more dangerous than people realize, by only focusing on the death toll.

    Why do you suppose that governments all over the planet, 210 countries and territories, are going berserk about this, trying to impose masks, vaccinations... when other diseases in the past haven't generated as much buzz?

    Because the people who are in the know, know for a fact that this virus is DARN DANGEROUS!!! That's why you see all these measures now, and you didn't see them in the past. Is this all politics, all power-seeking, etc.? Nope. It's just something called Public Health. The leaders have panicked about this virus for a reason: it's because it is indeed a very dangerous one.

    You like to enjoy the good pleasures of life... would you want to have your ability to enjoy them, severely curtailed? Would you want to be dizzy and with heart palpitations from going up a flight of stairs? Would you want to have shortness of breath at the smallest exercise such as walking on a flat street block? Would you want to go into renal failure and need to be hooked to a dialysis machine for four hours every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday short of a kidney transplant? Would you want to be dazed and confused with cognitive problems that would hinder your ability to work? Would you want to need insulin shots several times a day and monitoring of your blood sugar several times a day? Would you want to suffer a stroke and have half of your body paralyzed or become unable to talk?

    Because all of the above outcomes are possible as sequelae (health consequences) of an acute bout of Covid-19, and I've seen cases of all of the above including in young and healthy people. Are they the norm? No, they are the minority, but a very significant minority. I wouldn't mess with this virus. Risking one or more of the terrible outcomes above, if you like analogies, sounds like a Russian Roulette to me. If you get one of these, bye-bye your carefree, pleasure-seeking lifestyle... forever; for as long as you live. You may very well end up prematurely in a nursing home, like the one in your analogy.

    Having a short trip to your Health Department or local pharmacy or your doctor's office for 5 minutes twice a year to get a Covid-19 jab (if indeed we end up needing boosters every six months - this is still to be established) is a tiny bit inconvenient but is way less inconvenient than any of the possible outcomes above.

    So, masks are inconvenient? They are. So you don't want to wear one because of the inconvenience factor? I'll tell you, wearing instead a ventilator in an ICU is way more inconvenient.

    Any reasonable person in possession of the full information about this virus would likely find that the risks and the inconveniences of the vaccines are far outweighed by the benefits. As people say, "it beats the alternative."

    Are the vaccines risk free? No, nothing is. But their rate of complications is extremely tiny and thousands of times smaller than the rates of complications from the virus itself. Are the vaccines 100% efficacious? No, not so many things are. But they are efficacious enough to avoid a lot of the above.

    But again, short of your country issuing a mandate, it's up to you, so do whatever you fell like, but be aware of the risks of NOT getting the boosters too; don't just factor in the inconvenience factor. You may end up way more inconvenienced if your immunity fades and you catch this dangerous virus, and if then you suffer an unfortunate long-term consequence in one or more of your major organs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  22. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    There is a LOT to process there.

    First, I think you should know who you are talking to. I wash my hands regularly, I keep my mask on, I avoid super-spreader events, I took my vaccine and urge others to do the same and finally I obey the laws of my country. If every anti-vaxxer on this forum took my view, you'd be a very happy person.

    I also am very aware of the threat of Covid-19. I had it in August last year with a fever and headache for 2-3 days. Due to testing positive on a swab test, I had to delay mole removal surgery (which could have been cancerous) by 2 months. I had a work colleague who died of Covid-19. My Dad was trapped in the UK for 4 months because the British government were unsure how to deport foreigners who arrived prior to the lockdown. Due to the uncertainty of it all, I descended into a deep depression. So I don't need any lectures on being reckless or foolish.

    Second, the place where I draw the line is a jab every 6 months without compensation. I'm ready to move on after everything I've been through and I don't want to be told to keep being afraid and keep being shamed into doing things I don't want to do. You really don't have any good options with the 6 month jab thing with me.

    You could:

    1. Just be blunt and tell me that I will never enter another bar or ever take off my mask for the rest of my life. I appreciate that kind of directness as opposed to a vague assurance that maybe in 18 months things will be different.

    2. You could hold a metaphorical gun to my head (the authority of the government)

    3. You could reward me in multiple ways like cash, food coupons, give a firm promise that on December 31st 2022 I can attend an New Year's Ever party.

    What you CANNOT do in my case is urge me to get a bi annual jab without compensation on my own free will by either preaching about the dangers of organ failure or calling me a granny killer.

    Third: Now I will address your long winded talk about the dangers of organ failure. Outside of the odd reference on TV interviews and some articles on the Internet, I'm not hearing Dr. Fauci and other experts and government spokespersons scream from the rooftops "ORGAN FAILURE!!!" Unless I hear my President: Joko Widodo or his health minister talk about organ failure behind a lectern with a dozen men in white coats, I won't listen to a rando on an Internet forum preach to me about it. Maybe you should give my President a phone call. But you can pat yourself on the back for trying.

    The reason I'm not listening to your talk about organ failure is because it is part of a constantly changing narrative. You mentioned in an earlier post about how there will be no herd immunity when earlier in the pandemic that was very much the goal. The changing narrative contributes to the failures to get this pandemic under control. Remember the lockdowns and all that talk about flattening the curve? In my country, the peak point in new Covid-19 cases was in June of this year long past the partial lockdown imposed last year (you can look this up). Also, before, not following the rules was akin to elder abuse (infecting the vulnerable), now it is akin to heroin use (organ failure).

    Despite my objection to the bi annual jab, I would still follow mandates because the power of a uniform and badge still scare me. I still fear getting fined or thrown in a prison cell. Covid-19 no longer scares me because honestly, unless there is an end date set in stone on the calendar, the cure is worse than the disease.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  23. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, my intention was exclusively to protect your health. As a physician with 41 years of practice, this has been my mission and my vocation my entire life, so when I post here in my spare / leisure time, I naturally continue this mission. You can believe me, or not. It's up to you. I'm definitely not some "rando on an Internet forum" if you take the time to explore some of the denser scientific topics I've addressed here. Or not. Again, whether or not you believe in my credentials is strictly up to you.
    ----------
    Organ failures: there's been literally hundreds of papers exploring it (and media articles about cases). Oh, so Fauci is not talking about it? So what? Do you think that Fauci is the only authority on this? He is basically a politician, and he has mislead the public before. Whether or not he acknowledges the SARS-CoV-2 dangers of organ failure is completely irrelevant to the reality of said organ failure, which has happened over and over with people with Covid-19. Are you telling me for example that you never heard of cases of full lung transplant in survivors of Covid-19?
    Here is one:
    https://www.wfla.com/community/heal...-speaks-out-following-double-lung-transplant/
    Here is another one:
    https://khn.org/news/covid-double-lung-transplant-survivor-tells-her-story/
    Here is another one:
    https://www.wbaltv.com/article/blak...get-vaccine-after-bout-with-covid-19/37613024
    Here, several others:
    https://www.dispatch.com/story/news...g-transplants-after-beating-virus/7046357002/

    I could go on and on forever, and then switch from the lung to other organs.
    The fact that Fauci is not talking about them, doesn't make these cases any less real.

    Let's do it a bit more. You want to look at the kidneys?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/health/covid-kidney-damage.html
    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...another-consequence-of-long-covid-study-finds
    "Researchers found that months after their initial infection, COVID survivors were at increased risk of various types of kidney damage -- from reduced kidney function to advanced kidney failure."
    https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...ong-haulers-may-be-risk-severe-kidney-disease

    Pancreas, with new onset diabetes?
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2018688
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7765692/
    https://medcraveonline.com/EMIJ/EMIJ-09-00302.pdf

    Heart?
    https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19
    https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/covid-19-and-the-heart-what-have-we-learned-2021010621603
    https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heart-damage-seen-in-50-of-people-hospitalized-with-covid-19

    (The last one talks about 50% of heart damage in hospitalized Covid patients)

    Brain, Stroke?
    https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STROKEAHA.120.031786
    https://weillcornell.org/news/what-to-know-about-stroke-and-covid-19
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2779040

    Hey, the last one above is in ASYMPTOMATIC cases! If that's not scary, I don't know what is.

    And so on and so forth. I could move on to other organs but I'll stop.

    So, THE ENTIRE MEDICAL COMMUNITY TALKS ABOUT IT NON-STOP, but if Fauci is not talking about it, you think it's not happening???

    Odd references in the Internet? It's all over the place INCLUDING IN MY PRACTICE!!! Like I said, I've personally seen cases of all of the above, and more. And there are literally HUNDREDS of scientific papers on these organ damages! Some of the ones above are scientific papers. Others are lay press. I've found that providing a mix convinces some people a bit better, because non-specialists are not likely to read papers laden with scientific language. But the evidence is ABONDANT, and it's not because you think I'm a "rando on an Internet forum" that the evidence doesn't exist.

    ----------

    Constantly changing narrative: this is a novel disease, with novel treatments, and ongoing evolving situation regarding sequelae (medical consequences) of the infection with the SARS-CoV-2. So, what would you prefer, that we DIDN'T change the narrative when the data and the evidence change? Would you prefer that we kept OUTDATED advice???

    The influenza virus has been with us for millennia. Our narrative about the flu doesn't change a lot. The SARS-CoV-2 has been with us for less than 2 years. So, yeah, of course the narrative changes, duh!

    At first we had the hope for herd immunity. We had NOT seen cases of re-infection with the ancestral variants. They started being documented little by little by were considered rare. But then, Delta and Gamma changed that (they are the two variants most prone to re-infecting people who had the ancestral variants before), so now, obviously, if having had the disease doesn't fully stop you from catching it again, there is no possibility of herd immunity. So the narrative changed, because the virus changed. If we were still pursuing herd immunity after the Delta and the Gamma surfaced, we'd be fools. That's one of the reasons why Sweden abandoned their herd immunity experiment (which killed a bunch of people).

    (This said, I ALWAYS, from the beginning, thought that pursuing herd immunity as a matter of public health policy was boneheaded even at a time when it seemed possible, for many reasons I could explain longly, but would be a bit off-topic).

    ------------

    Thanks for calling "long winded" my taking the time of explaining things to you in detail, with the best of intentions of being helpful.

    On the other things you've been doing (basic vaccination, other precautions), good for you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  24. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Dude. If you had Covid and are vaccinated you have “gold standard” immunity. If where you live you won’t be able to attend a New Years Eve party this coming New Years, I suggest moving to somewhere there is some freedom to make decisions for yourself. If moving somewhere with more freedom isn’t an option disregard my advice, but if freedom to live your life is important you’ll have to choose between that freedom and whatever keeps you where you are. If you choose the other over freedom there’s no sense complaining about the lack of freedom.

    Again, if you don’t have the choice/option to move disregard my advice. :)
     
  25. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I edited my post a little bit as you were responding. Not important, but maybe you have something to say about some subsequent remarks. I don't know...

    Anyway, you say you are trying to help with providing as much information as possible. Why? I don't want a safety instruction manual. I want assurance that things are turning around for the better. It's why I keep going on and on about rewards and firm promises set on the calendar. Clearly from your writing, you don't believe they will. If you don't believe things are turning around for the better, you could be 100% blunt about it and say that the we are living in a dystopian society and I should just learn to live with it. No more bars, no more international travel without quarantines. EVER. As I said, I appreciate that kind of straight talk.

    I honestly believe after cooperating with the medical workers as much as I have and after all I suffered last year, I deserve some positive reinforcement NOT an instruction manual on how to live in a doomsday bunker.
     

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