What can a patriotic American do/advocate?

Discussion in 'Political Science' started by yangforward, Aug 23, 2022.

  1. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Patriotic Americans seem to be trapped, should we:

    Support Biden's corrupt and destructive war in Ukraine?

    Or oppose the war and be accused of siding with Russia?
     
  2. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Oops, I may have gotten post 1 wrong.
     
  3. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Irrespective of whether Ukraine is in the wrong or Russia is in the wrong, I would have thought that dividing the country into an Eastern Russian-speaking part and a Urkaininian-speaking part would be a reasonable option.

    Both the Obama and Trump administrations were against shipping large quantities of weapons into Ukraine, and that sounds like the right option for several reasons:

    1. If Russia is in the wrong it gives Russia less excuse to attack. If Russia is fearful it throws less gasoline on the fire.

    2. It gives more time for reason to prevail.

    3. It gives more time for people to move if reason does not prevail.

    4. The US has gone to war without good reason too many times in past to believe we might have gotten it right this time. But maybe we have.

    5. Biden has got so many things wrong it is difficult to believe he got this one right, but maybe he or his boss did.
     
  4. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Russia launched an attack outside it's border that killed thousands of people and continues to kill people in the name of protecting them.

    George Bush did the same. You would think they would have learned from that mess.
     
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  5. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I recall GWB talking about a New World Order, and that the Neocons were ushering in the New American Century.

    And I have little doubt Pres. Putin and perhaps also Pres. Zelenskyyy and Joe Biden all think they are also achieving something impressive too.
     
  6. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are questions of objective truth and of perceived truths as well.

    The Russians have explained that having been invaded by Sweden in 1610, 1708 and 1788, by Napoleon in 1812 (the 1812 Overture), Germany in 1914 and 1941, the US in 1917/18, Russia is somewhat worried by the weapons build-up in the Ukraine.

    Questions about aggression can be as much about perceived aggression as actual.

    The US claimed to be bombing Vietnam in self-defense, done by the Department of Defense, using weapons made by the defense industry.

    I can't claim to be a passivist, if some countries are armed then all countries need to be armed.

    But when the Ukraine left the USSR there was a substantial Russian population in the Eastern part and the best way to resolve conflict might be to have a border between the two parts.

    Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia both divided into two (or more) parts proving it could be the best answer.
     
  7. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    I don't see that supporting or opposing the war would make any meaningful difference to America prime beyond just being another subsidy to American arms manufacturing.
     
  8. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So what can a patriotic American do?

    Tell the truth but also be sympathetic to anyone genuinely trying to understand what is going on because it isn't simple.

    Focus on things nearer home which we have a good chance of understanding.

    Gently challenge liberals who think nationalism is a bad thing by asking what the alternative is, and how they might get it to work.
     
  9. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are two narratives: the Biden/US narrative that Russia is in the wrong for advancing into Ukraine, and the Russian narrative that the US was wrong to supply training and huge quantities of weapons to The Ukraine.

    The defect in the US narrative is that in every war since 1814 this nation has been fighting outside our borders. So who went where is not the whole story.

    The Russian narrative is wrong because Russia should have appealed to the UN Commission for World Truce, which may currently be in the proposal stage.
     
  10. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No matter who is right and who is wrong, the best outcome I can think of is for Ukraine to divide in the same way as both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia did.

    In the case of Ukraine it should divide into a Ukrainian-speaking region consisting of the center and the West, and a Russian-speaking region of Crimea and Donbas.

    Having two culturally different regions struggling to control the government eventually led to the present war.

    The other outcomes I can think of are not good ones.
     

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