What does Ukraine hope to gain from the war?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by yangforward, Feb 27, 2024.

?

What does Ukraine hope to gain from the war?

  1. 1 Freedom (to do what?)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. 2 Control over it's future (which aspect?)

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. 3 To get Russia out (Russia entered to protect Donetsk and keep out NATO)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. 4 Freedom to join NATO (Ukraine is not currently eligible to join NATO)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. 5 Nothing, there is nothing Ukraine can gain from the war.

    3 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What does Ukraine hope to gain from the war?

    I've been unable to get a useful answer, there's been a lot
    of deviation, like that Ukraine has a right to do anything within
    it's own borders including point nuclear-armed missiles at
    Moscow.
     
  2. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The US's own response when the USSR put nuclear armed
    missiles (1 real, 33 dummies) in Cuba, was the Joint Chiefs
    of staff all wanted to bomb the installations immediately.

    JFK preferred to try negotiations first, which worked.

    And that didn't just apply to nuclear weapons, previously
    on September 4, 1962, President Kennedy issued a public
    warning against the introduction of offensive weapons into Cuba.

    The President of the Russian Federation publicly asked
    why Ukraine had assembled an army of 680,000 NATO
    trained and equipped soldiers, what the reason was?
     
  3. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    But there are also the obvious questions, even more obvious
    now that approaching a million lives have been lost in
    Ukraine,

    - of what does Ukraine want?
    - or indeed what does anyone hope to gain?
     
  4. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It is fairly obvious why Russia has been trying to negotiate,
    because there doesn't seem to be a strong case for war.

    Prior to the US sending money and weapons to Ukraine,
    Russia and Ukraine had negotiated settlements over
    boundary disputes, and settled them.

    But after the weapons arrived, the bombardment on Feb 19th
    2022 for example was very heavy compared with anything
    previous, and Russia moved forces in to protect Donetsk,
    and moved a small fast force down to Kyiv to get Ukraine to agree to
    a peace treaty which it did.

    Pres Putin showed a copy of the peace treaty, what happened to
    the peace treaty? The US and UK both told Zelensky what to do
    with it, on Apr 1 2022.

    The conditions for peace were very reasonable.
    Donetsk was to be demilitarized, it was to be autonomous, part
    of Ukraine but autonomous. No, I don't know what that means,
    but sort of like Austria.
     
  5. dharbert

    dharbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,272
    Likes Received:
    3,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    A few hundred billion more of our tax dollars....
     
  6. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can't think of anything individual Ukrainians can gain, - a university education,
    opportunity to start a company, a good home and to start a family, I can't think
    of anything.

    Zelenskyy got some money, and the commanders of military groups I guess
    could get the pay packets of soldiers they say they have but don't actually have
    perhaps, maybe that leads to thinking they have more soldiers than they
    actually have - underestimating the losses, that's a guess.

    Selling weapons on the black market could be lucrative.

    The main winners must be the weapons makers in the US
    and anyone who holds stock in 'defense contractors'.
     
    dharbert likes this.
  7. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    27,615
    Likes Received:
    11,317
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about not being taken over by Russia? I did not think it was that complicated.
     
  8. dharbert

    dharbert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2020
    Messages:
    2,272
    Likes Received:
    3,330
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Bingo.
     
    yangforward likes this.
  9. Eclectic

    Eclectic Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2024
    Messages:
    477
    Likes Received:
    284
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    I think that the Ukrainian centrists wanted to join the EU on similar terms as Poland, Hungary and Romania did. This would involve substantial subsidies from the EU to transition their economy to conform with EU standards.

    This got derailed over social issues pushed by the more extreme nationalists such as forbidding the use of Russian in schools in Russian-speaking areas. There are frictions between groups depending on whether the Ukrainian speaks Ukrainian or Russian, and is affiliated with the Greek Catholic, autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox religion.

    It also got derailed by other issues, such as US/UK NATO ambitions and meddling, the machinations of prominent Ukrainian oligarchs/crime bosses, and especially by pipeline politics. Due to the structure of Soviet gas and oil pipelines the Warsaw Pact countries, most pipelines went via Ukraine to Hungary and Slovakia, with another couple via Poland. So after the USSR dissolved, Ukraine saw an opportunity to charge whatever the traffic would bear for gas transiting Ukraine. It also took the opportunity to divert gas for its own use and not pay for it. This worried Russia's new customers like Germany and led to NordStream in order to diversify supplies.

    So the whole thing blew up in 2014, aided by color revolution machinations of the US. Russian speaking areas rebelled, with Donetsk and Lugansk seceding with Russian help.

    The Donbas is an old heavy industry district. Pre WW I it was to Imperial Russia as Pittsburgh was to the US. Loss of the Donbas is a problem for Ukraine's entry into the EU. Much of the rest of the country is agricultural, and the EU doesn't need a bigger problem subsidizing agriculture overproduction. Loss of Crimea is probably less of a problem, although it precludes Ukraine from prospecting for hydrocarbons in the northern Black Sea.
     
    yangforward likes this.
  10. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2020
    Messages:
    7,823
    Likes Received:
    3,847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Uh not losing its territory in the same way you would hope to gain your freedom if you were being held hostage or your life if you were being brutally assaulted I suppose.
     
    Sleep Monster likes this.
  11. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Russian Federation became independent on June 12 1991 and Ukraine on Aug 24 1991.

    The breakup of the USSR had not been planned and one problem was administrative boundaries
    were not designed to be national boundaries.

    Russia and Ukraine resolved these issues; one important settlement was Russia paid a lease on
    Sevastopol in gas, to run through to 2042. A more complicated problem was Ukraine was using it's
    position between Russia and Europe to charge whatever the market would bear in markups on gas
    transiting through Ukraine, and

    Russia and Germany then constructed the Nordstream Pipeline to avoid Ukraine.

    Peaceful resolutions.

    What happened next is in Post 4.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
  12. Joe knows

    Joe knows Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2021
    Messages:
    13,972
    Likes Received:
    10,227
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    How about sovereignty over their land. If you want to justify this as something they don’t want then why did they vote for the current powers that be? You’re falling for Russian propaganda
     
    Melb_muser, DaveBN and Sleep Monster like this.
  13. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2018
    Messages:
    27,615
    Likes Received:
    11,317
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    As best I can tell, there has been no increase in sales by defense contractors. Most of the material going to Ukraine is coming out of our stockpiles and is reducing our ability to respond to threats.
    How does that justify Russia attacking Ukraine on Feb 24, 2022?
     
  14. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    28,120
    Likes Received:
    21,389
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Same thing Russia wants- land. The ethnic Russian majority in eastern Ukraine has been voting to secede for several years. And Ukraine would have been more than happy for them to leave ...except the ethnic Russians wanted to take their land with them, and no govt on earth finds that acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2024
    Talon, DaveBN and Melb_muser like this.
  15. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    14,288
    Likes Received:
    9,784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Are you even American? If so, why? You obviously favor Russia and Putin (a murderous dictator) to the U.S. (and our silly democratic processes), so shouldn't you be living in Moscow or St. Petersburg?
     
  16. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you think back to WW2 when we got our present position of running the world,
    getting involved in wars where there is no clear or valid objective, nothing to gain,
    has harmed the US, both in capital and in reputation.

    Looking back it is obvious now that the war in Vietnam was one of those, nothing
    to gain, lots to lose, and it got lost. Sure Esso got the oil in the shallow sea off
    the south coast but the damage done to the United States was considerable.

    The mainstays of the US have been our currency and reputation. The dollar went
    off the gold standard and has devalued ever since, and now has reached the
    inevitable point of losing world dominance. We killed 3 million Vietnamese and
    spread agent orange around Vietnam and achieved nothing for them or even
    for ourselves.

    The war in Ukraine is the same. Costs a fortune, costs our reputation, and nobody
    gets anything out of it.

    There are two main countries in the world - the US and China. The US is losing
    our financial and reputation in Ukraine. China is unaffected.

    The reason capitalism is better than governmentism is when an investor has been
    losing money hand over fist with no hope of an investment turning around, the
    investors dump the loss maker.

    Politicians hate to lose face so they double down, and turn a loss maker into a
    complete disaster.
     
  17. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Messages:
    16,069
    Likes Received:
    7,592
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What could Ukraine hope to gain from the war?!?

    Is this an actual legitimate question or did some moron A.I. come up with this?

    I'm afraid to even type the answer because I swear this has to be some kind of trick.
     
  18. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    14,288
    Likes Received:
    9,784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    My question remains: why aren't you living in Russia? You are un-American, in my opinion.
     
  19. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Russia didn't attack Ukraine, do you mean the whole of Ukraine or just the line down to Kyiv and the Russian-speaking parts of Eastern Ukraine?

    Already answered. Ignore.
     
  20. Talon

    Talon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    46,828
    Likes Received:
    26,389
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Ukraine hopes to regain the territory Russia stole from it.

    Now, here's a question for you, tovarish:

    How many Russians need to die before they learn that the revanchist warmonger in the Kremlin who fancies himself as the next Peter the Great doesn't have the right to do whatever he wants beyond Russia's borders?

    300,000?

    500,000?

    1,000,000?
     
  21. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, it's a trick - if you type the letter D three times in a row it deletes your hard disk. (joke)

    What actually happens is once or twice or thrice a day I think of a question that
    could get to the core of a problem, and then I put it on PF before I forget it.

    When I meet with other people I share some of my posts and they think the posts
    are pretty good, otherwise I wouldn't share them. And I like reading the posts of
    a few people who are very good, but I still post just to get my own thinking straight
    or in some cases change it or cut bits out.

    In real life I once explained something to someone and it took ten minutes.
    Now the same explanation I can do in half a minute. To me that is success.

    I don't aim to be better than other people, just better than I was yesterday
    (taken from Jordan Peterson).
     
  22. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    41,836
    Likes Received:
    15,118
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's like asking what a democratic western European nation - England, France, etc. - hoped to gain from WWII.

    They all hoped to retain their independence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2024
  23. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    38,968
    Likes Received:
    14,971
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Freedom from attack from a next door military power. They would also like to regain their territory. Not complicated.
     
  24. yangforward

    yangforward Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2022
    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    1,576
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The Russian Federation and Ukraine got along fairly well until Biden sent the Kyiv government in
    Ukraine a lot of weapons.
     
  25. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    14,288
    Likes Received:
    9,784
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'm all in favor of free speech, but seriously, you need to get the eff out of this free country. All you ever do on this forum is make excuses for a murderous thug of a dictator. Please move to Russia, since you so obviously prefer it to the U.S.A.
     

Share This Page