What REALLY caused the economic crisis, inflation,...

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, Apr 17, 2024.

  1. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ok... so having run out of arguments, you wish to go off topic. Economy is a science. No need for quotation marks. There is NO disagreement among economists as to the scientific principles of the Science of Economics.

    OH dear God! What nonsense! Science is not about scientists agreeing. Not in astrophysics.... not in Economics. The technical APPLICATIONS of a science is called generically called "technology". And astrophysics might disagree on what the best fuel to power a rocket to the moon might be (in fact, astrophysicists disagree on many many things). But Economists ALL agree, whether they are in China, Russia, or Guatemala... on the scientific precepts of economics: debt, wealth, profit margins, ...

    Anyway... the fact that you try to change the subject is indication that my point was made. If you wish to discuss (or, more accurately, 'discuss') epistemology, open a thread.

    Thanks for playing....
     
  2. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is absurd and the reason is very simple. The economy reacts to reasoning and emotions of the economists and the general public. There are no purely scientific relationships that can predict how the economy will react to any given stimulus.

    At best, it can be considered a social science.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
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  3. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    Well duh! since the tax reductions were based on income why is it surprising that higher earners with their HIGHER TAXES would receive a bigger dollar amount?
    No they didn't - excess spending, as always, was the problem. IF you check CBO data you'll see tax revenue didn't drop.
    Wrong. Billions and billions of unbudgeted spending to fight the virus and keep people afloat started it, and then Biden stepped in and spent trillions more of unbudgeted money.
    You mean MIS-information front. The trillions he's spent is the key to the debt. He's heading to four consequtive fiscal year of trillion dollar deficits - a feat only duplicated by Obama. Trump had one during the Pandemic.

    LOL, wave growth out paced inflation for one year, lagging far behind in the other three. Biden's running inflation just hit 19%; real wages - not so much.

    You need to research beyond Democrat press releases and maybe review your Econ 1A college notes.
     
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  4. Bullseye

    Bullseye Well-Known Member

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    It's a lie they tell themselves.

    No they don't; there are several schools and sub-schools in the world of economics. Research it.
    LOL, yeah, he threw a no hitter against you. You did hit. couple of foul balls.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
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  5. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure it's going to be "happy daze" from here on out with a one trillion a year deficit..

    And that's with covid era free money give away emergency sweepstakes winners..

    Don't expect folks to see numbers, they are not important, YET.. But that day will come, and we will all eat crow, LITERALLY!!!!

     
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  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Missing the point, as usual. The $500 that the middle class receives goes back into the economy and produces wealth. The $60 K and ulterior cuts because of the law DON'T. So anything above ZERO in tax reductions for billionaires only ADDS to the debt and returns nothing. And THAT, boys and girls, is why the deficit increased to the levels we see today: because of a TRUMP policy . A Trump policy that keeps on adding to the debt.

    If you are concerned about the debt, then you now know that giving tax breaks to billionaires causes it to go wild. So if you support a presidential candidate who has PROMISED to increase the debt, you didn't actually care as much as you claimed. So from now on you cannot use that as an excuse to support an indicted criminal out on bail. You'll need to make up some OTHER excuse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
  7. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    that's laughable, why do the class warfare operatives whine about billionaires. that's less than 760 people
     
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  8. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    In not so many words socialism or take from the productive, give to the none productive so they can spend TAX payer money, better than the tax payers can..

    Typical leftist fuzzy math..
     
  9. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    It's fuzzy math, it's like you or I head down to the store to buy a broom and some guy needs a broom too... So you give him the money you were going to purchase a broom with and he buys a broom while you do without.

    So exactly where did the economy benefit from taking from one to enrich another ;)

    Fuzzy math!
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
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  10. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Undoubtedly, you have a very creative way of interpreting written text. I find myself short of arguments and wish to deviate from the topic? Absolutely not. I aim to demonstrate that the claim made by certain ‘economists’ that “policy by Biden has been bringing us out from the verge of a recession in which the Trump regime put us” holds as much validity as the claim made by different ‘economists’ that “policy of Biden ruin American successful economy built by Trump’.

    To illustrate the distinction between the fields of economy and astrophysics, I pointed out that there was almost total consensus among Soviet and Western astrophysicists while economists have significant disagreements. Coincidence?

    Furthermore, there are minimal differences in the views of astrophysicists who support Trump and those who support Biden. However, the same cannot be said for economists, where substantial differences exist. Coincidence?

    So, the question arises: who is correct – the economists who support Biden or the ones who support Trump?

    As for the cause of inflation, I found an interesting article that might provide some insights:
    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/07/the-greedflation-debate-is-deeply-confused.html
     
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  11. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Bravo, that link was as good as it gets, great addition to this thread and general addition to this forum and site..

    Thank you!!

    Should be a sticky
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2024
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  12. LibDave

    LibDave Newly Registered

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    Unsubstantiated biased hogwash.
     
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  13. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    If by "productive" you mean those that produce wealth for the country, that's the middle class DOES, as the OP shows. I have no problem if you want to call that "socialism". But then you have just demonstrated that socialism works! Giving it a name that YOU think makes it seem "ugly" does not change the facts.

    BTW, in my time (and very likely in yours) the word "socialism" became something akin to invoking the devil. Newer generations don't give a crap! What works, works! So as our generations recede, the word will have less and less of the emotional weight you want to give it. You would need to actually argue THE POINT. Something you seem to always try to avoid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2024
  14. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Starters, I quoted your example of depriving people via taxed dollars and some how giving it to someone else to spend adds to the economy :roll:

    As far as calling it socialism, it was better than the other alternative I had in mind ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2024
  15. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forget about "productive" and just look at it as basic fairness. Taking something away from one person and giving it to another is basically unfair. Generally, we worked harder and maybe smarter for our wealth. By taking away our wealth and giving it someone who did not earn it, is not only unfair, it also destroys the motivation of that person to work harder. After all, why work harder for something which is going to be given to him anyway.
     
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  16. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Math, it's the lefts biggest hurdle..
     
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  17. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Create wealth by creating opertunity, but the lefts abandoned that idea long ago..
     
  18. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Here is another huge problem, and concerning Mexico and South America this is a guess at best..

    Now putting that back in to U.S. economy would make a difference ;)
     
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  19. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    You have a very creative way of WRITTING text in a way that, when proven wrong, you simply fall back to it being misinterpreted. I have interpreted it CORRECTLY!

    Ok. Not exactly the topic, but close enough. Let's see you do that.... The OP provides the arguments to support the first part as it relates to the debt and tax cuts.

    The economists who support FACTS! It makes NO difference who they vote for.

    Was that IT? All you had was some sort of "conspiracy theory" among economists, that you can't even convey in a cohesive way? The links to what I said are in the OP, for example. SHOW what numbers were wrong, altered or interpreted arbitrarily by these "conspirationists". And, by all means, tell us WHAT "Trump policy" built this "successful economy" you speak of, what was the result and show how it was accomplished.

    Ok... I don't think you're going to give us any of that. I guess I'm going to need to lower my expectations in respect to the depth and quality of your posts. So then... you were saying about my "creative way of interpreting written text"? You seem to do a better job discussing ME than discussing the TOPIC, so.... let's hear it...
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2024
  20. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Unfortunately, lying to yourself doesn't change reality, and the left thinks it will.

    Biden has put the nation in a condition similar to what's called the "death wobble" to motorcycle riders.
    This is where the dynamic stability of the bike is out of bounds, and control is a battle against a string of crisis coming so fast that there is no break between them. The condition is critical; if it's not quickly brought under control, the vehicle crashes.

    An economy and a society must have dynamic stabiltiy to function. Economic stability, political stability, psychological stability. Biden, while not personally capable of thinking up all the idiotic actions he has brought on us, is the trigger, the reason we are in this situation. The puppet leader- who would be a zombie if someone wasn't telling him what to do next. We have a sham president, a shadow government, and neither of them are capable or desirous of stabilizing America and getting us back to a healthy state.

    It is the absolute worst failure of management, of anything. America COULD be thriving right now- IF it had leadership that actually knew what they were doing and had the best interests of the nation as their guiding priority.

    Politicians make up these stories about things being good; BS to keep the gullible thinking things are getting better- to avoid facing the reality they are incapable of dealing with. Others who fear the growing threats and don't want to face it tend to support the illusions the politicians put out. It's an old reality; people will take a comfortable lie over an uncomfortable truth in the hope the lie is real, and they won't have to confront that truth.

    The fact is- that truth will eventually confront them, and they will have no choice. It will be much worse and much stronger because they have procrastinated and denied it.... and those who have will be the least prepared for it, as well as the first to demand somebody else fix it.

    Unfortunately, there is no "somebody else". There's only us. But most of us.... seem to be waiting for that somebody else, and expecting them to fix America without inconveniencing anyone.
     
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  21. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff..
     
  22. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    So you think it's unfair to use taxes to build a bridge that others use but you won't. Taxes are intended to provide for the General Welfare... like the Constitution dictates. "General"... not "individual". If you don't like the constitution, you are free to move to a deserted Island in the Pacific where it doesn't apply and you pay NO taxes.

    Already explained it to you a hundred times...
     
  23. Jack Straw

    Jack Straw Newly Registered

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    Would you be so kind as to explain, in detail, why you feel entitled to the fruits of someone else's labor?
     
  24. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK, you convinced me – economist who praise Biden support FACTS, economists who criticize Biden or praise Trump are spreading conspiracy theories.

    But what about AI, can we trust it? I asked this question:
    “what the majority of the US economist think about Biden economic policy?”

    MISTARL AI: Opinions among U.S. economists about Biden's economic policy can vary widely based on their political leanings, area of expertise, and specific policy in question. However, I can provide a general overview based on available analyses and reports.

    Fiscal Stimulus: Many economists have supported the fiscal stimulus measures, such as the American Rescue Plan, which provided relief to individuals and businesses affected by the COVID-19 pandemic. They argue that these measures have helped to support the economic recovery and reduce poverty levels.

    Infrastructure Investment: Biden's infrastructure plan, the American Jobs Plan, has received mixed reviews. Some economists argue that it will create jobs and boost long-term economic growth by addressing infrastructure needs, while others are concerned about the cost and potential for increased government debt.

    Tax Policy: Biden's proposed tax increases on corporations and high-income earners have also received mixed reviews. Some economists argue that these increases are necessary to fund social programs and reduce income inequality, while others are concerned that they could discourage investment and slow economic growth.

    Climate Change: Biden's focus on addressing climate change through investments in clean energy and regulations to reduce carbon emissions has been generally well-received by economists who specialize in environmental issues. However, some economists are concerned about the potential costs and impact on certain industries.

    Overall, while there is no consensus among U.S. economists about Biden's economic policies, many support his focus on fiscal stimulus, infrastructure investment, and addressing climate change. However, concerns about government debt, tax increases, and potential negative impacts on certain industries remain.

    My conclusion: we cannot trust MISTRAL AI because it hide very important truth you posted on this forum: “policy by Biden has been bringing us out from the verge of a recession in which the Trump regime put us.”

    chatGPT AI: As of my last update in January 2022, I don't have access to real-time data or surveys to provide the current majority opinion of US economists regarding Biden's economic policies. However, economists' opinions can vary widely based on their ideological leanings, areas of expertise, and specific policy preferences.

    My conclusion: We cannot trust chatGPT, because as you wrote “Economy is a science. No need for quotation marks. There is NO disagreement among economists as to the scientific principles of the Science of Economics”, so chatGPT is spreading lies that ‘economists' opinions can vary widely based on their ideological leanings.

    Gemini AI: I'm still learning how to answer this question. In the meantime, try Google Search.

    My conclusion: Gemini AI is for sure artificial, but not intelligent because still learning truths you already know.

    Claude AI: Most mainstream economists in the United States have had a mixed view on President Biden's economic policies so far. Here is a general overview of how many economists evaluate his major economic initiatives:

    Fiscal Policy: The $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan passed in early 2021 received broad support from economists for providing crucial pandemic relief spending and boosting demand, despite concerns about its size potentially overheating the economy.
    Biden's proposed spending packages like the Inflation Reduction Act and earlier Build Back Better plan received more divided views, with some praising the investments but others concerned about the deficit impact.

    Monetary Policy: Most economists backed the Federal Reserve's moves to aggressively raise interest rates in 2022-2023 to combat high inflation, though there are debates around how far and how fast to go.

    Inflation: There is a broad consensus that fiscal stimulus in 2021 contributed to stronger demand that outpaced supply, exacerbating inflation. But economists disagree on the relative weight of Biden policies versus other global factors.

    Energy/Climate: Biden's push for renewable energy investments in the Inflation Reduction Act and permit reform was largely praised by economists, though some critique the gasoline tax holiday as an ineffective policy.

    Overall, Biden's economic management received more positive reviews in 2021 when growth was strong. But high inflation since then has led many economists to be more critical of the demand-side effects of his policies, even as they continue supporting goals like climate investments. A plurality seem to have a lukewarm or moderate assessment overall so far.

    My conclusion: We cannot trust Claude AI because it says that “stimulus in 2021 contributed to stronger demand that outpaced supply, exacerbating inflation”. We trust the best expert who proved that “policy by Biden has been bringing us out from the verge of a recession in which the Trump regime put us.”

    Thank you for teaching me lesson in economics, and because I oppose Trump too, I hope poorly educated will believe you.
     
  25. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialism has very little to do with building bridges. That is a basic function of government. However, taking my money and giving it to others is not a basic function of government. I am all for charity. I give generously, but when you take my money and give it to someone else to pay for their college education, for instance, it is not fair. They signed a contract to repay their debt.
     

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