What the Bible actually says about gay marriage

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Anders Hoveland, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    Not all societies have historically practiced committed relationships analogous to the current religious right's "god-sanctioned" notions of marriage. One has only to look to the scriptures to see that this is so. Men traditionally had more than one wife.

    Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 describe a roman centurion who came to Jesus to plead for the healing of his boy. The boy is referred to in the original greek scriptures by the word pais, which by itself means that the boy was either the centurion's son or boy servant. Luke wrote that the boy was the centurion’s entimos doulos [verse 9], which meant the boy was an "honored slave". The centurion refers to his boy as pais, while using the word doulos to refer to his other slaves in Matthew verse 9.

    Matthew
    5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.
    6 “Lord,” he said, “my [boy] servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”
    7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”
    8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
    9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my [slave] servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
    10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
    11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
    12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
    13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.


    Luke
    1 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant.
    4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
    9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

    It would have been highly unusual for a Roman centurion to humble himself and plead with a Jewish rabbi to heal his menial slave, for several reasons. A roman centurion was a proud high-ranking official administering a conquered land, where the people were viewed as inferior to the romans. Slaves were generally treated as sub-human, expendable, in many respects like animals. Children also had low status within roman society. Free roman citizens could sell their children into slavery, and creditors could claim the children of insolvent debtors as slaves. Roman girls could be married off at the age of twelve and boys at fourteen. By the age of sixteen boys generally donned the adult toga.

    The greek word pais also had another possible meaning to the romans. At that time it was not uncommon for a man to purchase a young slave boy to be his lover. In ancient times, commercial transactions were the predominant means of forming relationships. Under the law, for example, the wife was viewed as the property of the husband, with a status just above that of a slave. The ancient romans did not have any qualms about same-sex relationships, nor were there prohibitions on older adults having relationships with 12 year old children. Pederastry was an accepted part of roman society. Indeed, it was seen as somewhat of an embasrrassment if two older men were lovers.

    Nowhere in the scriptures can be found any clear and direct sanctions against gay marriage. The verses typically quoted by the religious right are all very ambiguous. Yes, Leviticus describes punishment for two men laying with eachother "as a man lies with a woman", but this is part of "the law of moses", which Paul later preached was not a requirement for Christians.

    Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
    Galatians 3:23-25

    Leviticus also instructs that baby boys should have part of their penis (foreskin) cut off. Paul made it clear that Christians do not need to be circumcised.

    In the Babylonian Talmud, "lyings of a man" is contrasted with other forms of sexual activity between men, indicating that the meaning did not encompass all forms of sexual activity. As "the lyings of a man" is restricted in meaning, "the lyings of a woman" may also have had a specific sexual meaning. Scholars generally believe it referred only to anal sex, an activity that was not necessarily considered a feature of male-male sexual relationships in ancient times. Journal of the history of Sexuality, Volume 5 pp 179-206

    Many Bibles have made up their own false translations to support their own sect's baseless doctrine. For example, this verse is common:
    “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."
    This is a complete mistranslation of the original hebrew. However, a more accurate translation is:

    Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. It is a sinful thing.

    Indeed, the literal translation from Hebrew is actually:

    And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman, it is an abomination.
    V’et-zachar lo tishkav mishk’vei ishah to’evah hu.

    mishk’vei actually means "bed", as it is the noun form of mishkav, which means "to lie down". ishah means "women". to’evah is best translated as "abomination", although a direct and accurate translation into english is problematic.

    The actual meaning of the verse simply forbids two males to lie down in a woman’s bed.
     
  2. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    or consider Jonathan and David:

    “When David had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was bound to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father’s house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that he was wearing, and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt.”
    1 Samuel 18:1-4

    And Jonathan had David reaffirm his oath out of love for him, because he loved him as he loved himself.
    1 Samuel 20:17

    Jonathan's father, Saul, was not very happy about the relationship. Saul told Jonathan:

    “You son of a perverse, rebellious woman! Do I not know that you have chosen [David] the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother’s nakedness? For as long as the son of Jesse lives upon the earth, neither you nor your kingdom shall be established.” 1 Samuel 20:30

    “Why should he be put to death? What has he done?” Jonathan asked his father. But Saul hurled his spear at him to kill him. Then Jonathan knew that his father intended to kill David. Jonathan got up from the table in fierce anger; on that second day of the month he did not eat, because he was grieved at his father’s shameful treatment of David.
    1 Samuel 20:32-34

    “David rose from beside the stone heap and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. He bowed three times and they kissed each other and wept with each other, David wept the more. Then Jonathan said to David, ‘Go in peace, since both of us have sworn in the name of the Lord, saying, “The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my descendants and your descendants, forever.” ’ He got up and left; and Jonathan went into the city.” (1 Samuel 20:41-42)

    After Jonathan and Saul died in battle, David wrote a song:

    “Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
    In life and in death they were not divided;
    they were swifter than eagles,
    they were stronger than lions.
    How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
    Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
    I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
    Greatly beloved were you to me;
    your love to me was wonderful, greater than the love of women.”
    2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27

    Some scholars have suggested that David was just an opportunistic soldier rapidly rising up through the ranks and gaining popularity. When Saul's son Jonathan, who would have been the future king, showed favor in him, David may have been quick to take advantage of the opportunity, to use the relationship to gain influence. The scriptures later tell how David sent Bathsheba's husband off to the front lines of a battle to get get rid of him. Similarly, it may also have been possible that David informed the enemy when he learned that Saul would be leading a battle, so that Saul could be ambushed. If the enemy knew that the king himself would be fighting, there would likely have been many more soldiers lying in wait. David had used his influence with Jonathan to secure a high position for himself, and had gained much popularity (so much so that Saul had become very suspicious), so David knew he would be the favored candidate for the throne if Saul and Jonathan were killed. David may or may not have known that Jonathan would accompany his father into battle.
     
  3. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    What I find amusing is that Christians say the Old Testament is irrelevant to modern Christianity. Essentially stating that god loves us all ever since he sent his son down to die, (then made to be a zombie, for the sake of all humanity... even future sins.... which is laughable), making the Old Testament, with all of its rape, murder, and genocide, irrelevant.

    Yet, somehow, in all of its irrelevancy, they often cite Leviticus as an argument against homosexual marriage. Of course, just against the marriage, most typically do not support stoning homosexuals to death, thats just not a popular opinion these days.

    This should be a very interesting thread.
     

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