What we Think we know

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by spiritgide, Nov 2, 2024.

  1. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What you believe and the set of principles you use to measure it determine how well you understand what's happening, and the decisions you will make.

    Given that, it's critically important that the media reporting of news and events be totally unbiased and truthful, so that the people can base their own decisions on fact and truth.

    That used to be a sacred ethic in the press, like the Hippocratic oath of the medical profession. It no longer exists, and that alone has become a major cause of the division of the American people. Somehow, this has got to change, and that value be restored.

    From a TED talk:

    "Media is one of the agents of socialization and as one, media can move and compel us, sometimes empower us, and enlighten us. However, it can also distract us, manipulate us, indoctrinate us, and most importantly, divide us. Journalism used to be the champion of our liberty, freedom of press and freedom of speech. But it seems that by late, this cannot be further from its original values. Many might blame the corporate media for this tragedy, but it is merely just a symptom of our actual illness. The inability to face one’s problems is what lead us here. By doing the contrary, we might bring back our once beloved journalism."

    The quality of our Character and Values determine the mental wellness of a people, and that is critical to every objective we have as a nation, and as individuals. IF we cannot base our decisions on truth and facts- we have no control at all over our future.

    The question is- can we fix journalism and use that to fix ourselves- or in the alternative, fix ourselves and use that to fix journalism?

    Is either possible? Where do we start? How do we make people realize how important this is?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2024
    Eleuthera, Seth Bullock and RodB like this.
  2. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    8,742
    Likes Received:
    7,455
    Trophy Points:
    113
    by asking them to think for themselves and ask the question "does this make sense" That would be a first step.
     
    Melb_muser likes this.
  3. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The trouble is, like everything else, what makes sense is a matter of opinion.
     
    MrFred and roorooroo like this.
  4. Sirius Black

    Sirius Black Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    8,742
    Likes Received:
    7,455
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The key word is "question."
     
    Melb_muser and Bowerbird like this.
  5. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2015
    Messages:
    23,217
    Likes Received:
    11,695
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Hooray! But I have no answers to your questions.
     
  6. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    98,529
    Likes Received:
    78,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    First stop shifting the Overton window downwards. Second break up the bigger oligopolies. Third and this is the hardest START TEACHING PEOPLE TO THINK CRITICALLY!
     
    Josh77 and MrFred like this.
  7. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    13,450
    Likes Received:
    11,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Like everything else in our world, there is good and bad in journalism. Sadly, we tend to lean in to the sites and stations that confirm our bias. All of us. It can feel like 'going home'. But if we want to be informed, we have to do our own homework by searching all the sites and stations to get the full story.
     
    spiritgide and Bowerbird like this.
  8. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    98,529
    Likes Received:
    78,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Does anyone use “Ground News”? I have been tempted to sign up
     
    Melb_muser likes this.
  9. Pants

    Pants Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2018
    Messages:
    13,450
    Likes Received:
    11,926
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    I hadn't heard about them so just looked it up. I've downloaded the app. Thanks!!
     
  10. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The range of ideas is properly limited by the capacity of our judgement. IF people can't think reasonably, they can't sort things; they lack the tools.

    Not sure what you count as oligopolies- other than governments, which unfortunately we have very little control over them because we are too divided to have the power and motivation to do anything about it.

    Beyond that comes some necessities like utilities, which in recent times in America we have seen using all kinds of gimmicks to drastically increase costs. These are regulated by government, and that takes the question back to the first answer, basically that government is obligated to serve the people... and we are letting them ignore that.

    I agree that the ability to think effectively, use critical process and logic is vitally important. The question is how that can be taught.
    In part the answer to that starts with what a person brings to the table. IF they think already know everything- it's hopeless, they are unable to learn.
    If they are dependant on some beliefs or sources, they are unable to learn anything that conflicts with those beliefs- and will lower the standard of acceptance for those that could be seen as supporting.

    So the ability to learn isn't so much related to what people think, but to how. It's like a craft, a skill you learn over time- IF you desire to learn. There are tools and rules, but they only work if the person follows the rules, and learns to use the tools. The tools are concepts, for example of how you see responsibility, how you set priorities, and how you set values- all for yourself, so that you can look at the events of life with the most accurate perception, reach the most accurate conclusions, make the best decisions. Life is a gift, but living it well is a skill that must be aquired.

    I know this very well, and I have taught these things for decades. In doing so, I've been greatly disappointed in the number of people who are simply unable to learn these skills, how to think better, because old and faulty beliefs, are all they know. Those things constitute their personal foundation and security. Things most will not, and dare not, question.

    I know quite a few very successful and brilliant people. Nearly all will share the secrets of their success with anyone who truly wants to learn but rarely wastes that effort on those who cannot learn.

    IF I knew how to change this, how to break through this barricade in people, I'd have done so long ago. Many of the wealthy and powerful people that poorer people blame for succeeding are totally in favor of showing others how to achieve... but unfortunately find few open to learning how, learning to think better.

    Most people think they know things, and most do- usually from a certain background or perception. But in all of us, some of what we believe is flawed. Some people are introspective and examine the basis for their beliefs, and can change- but more people don't do that, and can't.

    So... while I can totally agree on that objective, knowing we should is still not enough. We need to know how we can make it happen.
     
  11. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    98,529
    Likes Received:
    78,372
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Mutters to self “why does no one understand the art of Precis”
     
  12. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Never heard of it- but I will take a look too.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem is that most questions especially the important ones once you get by life and death have multiple answers that require a good bit of thought to sort out and most people simply aren't willing to invest the time and effort to come to an accurate conclusion especially when what sounds good on the surface is rotten underneath.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2024
    MrFred likes this.
  14. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Kind of a question that says- unless you can explain something in a line or two, people will be offended because they needed to invest more effort to understand.

    While I understand the value of concise and effective expression- I refuse to take responsibility for people's desire to avoid using their minds, examining issues.

    When you try to put a complicated issue in a simple sentence- hungry minds will not be satisfied, and almost never motivated to think further..

    I live my life based on three principle rules that I can write on the back of a business card. I looked for them for about 20 years, then on discovering the concepts, I took a year off to study them understand them, and distill them down to the essence I live by, today... which works like magic. I've lived by them over 40 years now, and they have brought me success in about everything- money, security, peace of mind, happiness, gratitude and more. But, I LIVE by them. To do that, you have to believe them. To believe them, you have to test them against everything you have known before- and, be willing to throw out a lot of trash. Nobody can accept and use them effectively until they do that. Everybody wants the easy answers- even to very complicated questions.

    So- I can define the principles of living successfully, thinking effectively- in 27 words. No secrets, I give this magic formula away free.
    But the only people who can use it are those willing to examine every corner of their minds and resolve hundreds of issues first.
    As I said- living is a skill. Not enough to have the tools- you have to know how to use them, master the skill.

    So... when we say "People should learn to use critical thinking" it's brief- and will change absolutely nothing. We have to learn how to think before we can learn to think differently.
    Few people see any reason to do so. How to we open the door to that idea?
     
  15. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male

    This is true. Another aspect of this is related to our perception of time. Even though we all know tomorrow and the future is coming fast, a lot of people, and certainly government- are terrible procrastinators, and don't prepare for it. So everyday, we deal with the events we failed to prepare for yesterday. One that shocks me over and over is raising the debt limit so we can borrow the money to make the minimum payment on our national obligations.

    While the questions can raise many complications, often the right answer is simple. It's somewhat like a disease that presents many symptoms. The symptoms are obvious and painful- so we treat them for relief, like taking drugs to relieve the pain- but that does not cure the disease, and the symptoms keep coming back. But IF we cured the disease, we would also be curing all the symptoms.

    We keep postponing the cure.... and the disease keeps on killing us.
     
    garyd likes this.
  16. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, you can lead a man to widsom and knowledge but you cannot make him think when feeling is ever so much easier and less complicated, at least at the start.
     
    spiritgide likes this.
  17. Eclectic

    Eclectic Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2024
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    633
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    "Journalism" was never so virtuous as it is portrayed in hindsight. The major newspapers, news magazines, TV and radio networks were always more the mouthpiece of establishment opinion and political organizations than champions of the people. Muckraking was noteworthy because it was so rare.

    But now there is a major problem with the very definition of "journalism", since the cost to set up as a publisher on the internet is so low that multitudes have become citizen journalists. So now we have "news channels" operated by the guy who used to be the local blowhard holding forth in the neighborhood bar with bizarre and uninformed opinions. Plus all sorts of quasi-legitimate organizations that used to circulate mimeographed newsletters to a small readership can now establish a web site with global reach. The samizdat have taken over journalism.

    At this point journalism is unfixable. It will be interesting to see whether the view is correct that in an open and free discussion of ideas truth will win out over error, as a whole range of optimists assume. On the other hand, pessimists assert that lies will go around the world while truth is putting its boots on.

    "Besides, as the vilest Writer has his Readers, so the greatest Liar has his Believers; and it often happens, that if a Lie be believ’d only for an Hour, it has done its Work, and there is no farther occasion for it. Falsehood flies, and the Truth comes limping after it; so that when Men come to be undeceiv’d, it is too late; the Jest is over, and the Tale has had its Effect…"

    Jonathan Swift, The Examiner, 1710​
     
  18. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There is no greater lie than that those who hold power are the most benign and the most truthful for they are as subject to all the vanities of man as anyone else and whether they wear pants or skirts matter little, for power is the great corrupter and the only defense in the end is Godliness and even the most Godly can be momentarily overcome by its evil charms.
     
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Very true.

    I think there are relatively simple answers to many things, but until a person comprehends the scope of the problem, until they have a valid set of values- they won't be heard.
    In current times, we have seen many ludicrous ideas get a lot of support, even when basic common sense should have kicked them to the curb. The gender thing, the idea that diversity is more important than competence, just to name a couple.
     
    RodB likes this.
  20. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The trouble with the great truths of this world is not that they are hard to understand but rather that they are difficult to accept.
     
  21. Eclectic

    Eclectic Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2024
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    633
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Religion is a very weak indicator of the morality of any individual. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

    Instead the institutions of society must be designed so that they can survive the evil nature of many of their participants.
     
  22. Seth Bullock

    Seth Bullock Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Messages:
    13,993
    Likes Received:
    12,265
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Good post.

    If I was an ultra rich billionaire I would want to start up a news channel that, from the top down, was dedicated to the highest standards of journalism. Objective, thorough, non-partisan. There would be no spinning, no telling only one side, no deliberate editing or little sound bites out of context to make one side or the other look bad, no attempt to sway voters one way or the other. If I detected anyone in the organization doing any of that, I'd fire them immediately.

    I think it would quickly become the most popular news source in America.

    Are you mega-billionaires listening to me? This would be slam dunk, so make it happen!
     
    spiritgide likes this.
  23. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    23,688
    Likes Received:
    12,296
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Under our present system, with the undue influence of the military industrial complex as Ike called it, we can never undo what has been done. Our media is controlled by a small number of corporations and they are merely lapdogs for government and the Deep State. IMO, the whole thing must implode before it can be corrected. The many problems this country faces cannot be solved by voting.
     
  24. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2012
    Messages:
    61,063
    Likes Received:
    19,108
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Didn't say a damn thing about religion. There have been thousands of religions in the world most are irredeemably vile.
     
  25. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    21,158
    Likes Received:
    16,941
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I think you are right. There are millions of people who have no confidence in the integrity and honesty of news, and none in government. The essence of a great news system is honesty independence- truth.
    It seems to have been lost, and we need it desperately.
     
    Seth Bullock likes this.

Share This Page