Where Progressives are going with the statue removals

That's YOUR opinion. OUR opinion is that the Constitution is a hard copy piece of paper with ink and words that establishes our system of government and the limits upon it, NOT a "living document" that can be changed with the whims and winds of political current. The Constitution not only takes no cognizance of the internet, railroad, stock companies, or radio, it has no need to do so. It is only concerned with the duties of government and the rights of people. Nothing in the Constitution discusses wagons, horses, printing presses, muskets, or cannons, all of which were available at the time.

While I agree with the sentiment, I find the effort to remove the statues alarming. I see in it Big Brother and the memory hole, and ISIS and the Bamiyan Buddhas. Pharaohs, when they decided on major changes to the way things were done from previous pharaohs, would try to have all evidence of the previous pharaohs' existence and their policies' existence removed from the walls. In the Soviet Union, whenever a previously notable public figure was removed from office and executed (usually), all evidence of his existence would be removed from public records, even photographs. Removal of the Civil War statues reminds me of all this and horrifies me. Is this how far we've come, that we have to erase history like a dictatorship?

He can answer for himself, but I'll put it in my own words: We should accept racist Klan rhetoric because we have the 1st Amendment. We should neither accept nor tolerate calls for violence against any person, race, or religion, nor for the violent overthrow of government. But as long as they don't go that far, the Klan can say whatever it wants. The comparison is for actual violence versus the fear of violence. You fear the Klan because they are racist, but they aren't nearly as violent as black people in Chicago, so your fear is misplaced. One Swedish authority used Chicago as an example in his own speech defending Sweden. Crime in Sweden has soared since the importation of thousands of Muslims into the country, particularly rape. But the crime rate in Malmo, which is now heavily Muslim, is still a fraction of the crime rate in Chicago. Take what you want from that little tidbit.

 

^ Some excellent points.

 

Don't lump me in with this "our opinion" crap. It's a living document whether or not you want to admit it; otherwise so many things would go unanswered and you'd have anarchy. You can count me out of that closed mindset that the constitution cannot be interpreted accordingly.

 

They weren't wrong, were they?

Can anyone translate this for me? I don't speak Gibberish.

I'm 51 and I have yet to see our society improve. If anything, our society has gotten worse and worse and worse. Technology has improved, I have improved, but society has gone downhill. Government is bigger and more intrusive than it ever was, the national debt dwarfs what it was when I was a kid, race relations and public discourse are much much worse than they were when I was a kid, there's no longer any agreement on what America is or should be or even means, a sixth of the population doesn't even speak the same language anymore, only a quarter of the population goes to church anymore, what was once the most trusted group in America, journalists, have become just one more interest group who lie, cheat, and mislead people to further their own causes, and the party of love and tolerance expresses that love and tolerance by beating people, rioting in the streets, starting fires, breaking windows, shutting down speeches they don't agree with, and tearing down statues of people who have been dead for so long they couldn't have wronged those people's grandparents. Show me the societal improvement.

 

LOL!

People like you are why the 1st Amendment is so important, to protect our precious rights from people like you.

Speech is probably the most important, as the right to criticize the government and its actions must come before any of the others. Freedom of the press is the freedom to criticize the government in newspapers and other media. Freedom to peaceably assemble is the freedom to criticize the government in a group. Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances is the freedom to criticize the government to government. Without the freedom of speech, you can do none of the other things (legally). In Sweden, they passed a law outlawing criticism of the government's immigration policies regarding Muslim immigration. If that's not a flagrant exercise of arbitrary and dictatorial government powers, I don't know what is. Sweden needs a 1st Amendment, and it needs it NOW.

I'll see your John Adams and raise you George Washington:
“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”
– George Washington

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”
– George Washington

"We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…"
– George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789

Benjamin Franklin:

“My dear friend, do not imagine that I am vain enough to ascribe our success [Revolution] to any superiority…If it had not been for the justice of our cause, and the consequent interposition of Providence, in which we had faith, we must have been ruined. If I had ever before been an atheist, I should now have been convinced of the being and government of a Deity!”
—In a letter to William Strahan, August 19, 1784

The United States Congress, 1782:

“The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

John Adams to Americans rather than Muslims:

"The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity."
– John Adams

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
– John Adams

"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
– John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
– John Adams

"I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world."
– John Adams

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity."
– John Adams

So you're quite wrong, America was indeed founded on Christian principles and as a Christian nation, by men who believed most fervently in God and his divine Providence.

 

Because you never know from one election to the next whether you're going to be "in" or "out". For eight years, Obama was prez and all of us Republicans were "out". Hence the rise of the Tea Party movement and various other efforts. Now Trump is prez and Republicans hold majorities all over the country, so we're "in". So the Tea Party is disbanding everywhere and viewership at Fox News is down, but the left is forming into new groups and viewership at CNN is up because the left is "out". Imposing any repression of hostile views today can be turned against us tomorrow, so we oppose it. The left doesn't see the logic of that and just wants to repress all hostile views today and forever, without realizing the same weapons can be used against them.

No. I wish I could make them be honest, but that's a vain wish.

Good God, what the hell is wrong with you? If you're referring to the left-wing, Jewish writer of the poem at the base of the statue, that has nothing to do with the statue itself, its French sculptor, or its meaning as the emblem of liberty.

Pure ad hominem attack with zero relation to the truth. Conservatives oppose fascism with the same vehemence we oppose communism and socialism. Here's Mussolini on fascism: "Fascism is for the only liberty which can be a serious thing, the liberty of the state and of the individual in the state. Therefore for the fascist, everything is in the state, and no human or spiritual thing exists, or has any sort of value, outside the state. In this sense fascism is totalitarian, and the fascist state which is the synthesis and unity of every value, interprets, develops and strengthens the entire life of the people." Does that sound like any conservative American you know? Conservatives believe in liberty, capitalism, the rule of law, and the absolute restriction on the power of the state over the individual. Conservatism is the polar opposite of fascism.

Pointless, false memes read and dismissed. By the way, fascism isn't the opposite of communism/socialism, it's the opposite side of the same coin, i.e., it's all about government power. The opposite of fascism/communism/socialism is liberty, capitalism, the individual, rather than the state. Secular humanists like to blame fascism on the church, but secular humanism is responsible for communism, the second-most repressive and murderous ideology in history after Islam, responsible for 100 million dead in the 20th century alone. It's odd that the government-loving left accuses the right of being fascists when real fascists (the ones in Italy) promoted government power, while the American right wants government reined in and government power over people's lives reduced and restricted. Apparently being a fascist in America simply means opposing the left.

Interesting. I used to be fundamental Baptist, now atheist, but I'm still a right-winger. What happened to cause you to fall so far from rationality that you would actually become a liberal?

False. You share a cultural heritage with all American history, good and bad, black and white, slaves and slave-holders, Amerindians and Caucasians, George Washington and Robert E. Lee, Thomas Paine and Benedict Arnold. They all go into your history and your heritage, whether you like it or not. It's important to acknowledge the good and the bad, to recognize the mistakes of the past so that we don't make them again, and to honor and respect the things our ancestors got right, so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel. The left is very much trying to divide the nation, successfully, in my opinion, between those who want to see the America of the past destroyed and buried and those who want to see the America of the past preserved and restored. Destruction of Civil War monuments is just another way of destroying America's past, a relatively "safe" way to do so because who could defend those who fought for slavery? But their real goal is destroying America's past in toto, and Civil War monuments are just part of it. Also part of it is gay marriage (destroy the family and you destroy society), immigration (replace white people with brown people and you destroy America), and government power (the more people come to rely on the government, the less they'll love liberty).

 

If those who turned on the United States, waged war on the United States, and killed soldiers and sailors of the United States are being venerated as deities, the equivalent of Buddhas, such effigies also have no place on public land in the United States as sectarian religious icons.

Of course, a democratic process that results in the eviction of offensive totems from public space, most of which were erected by folks with a racist agenda during the Jim Crow and Civil Rights eras, bears no resemblance to expunging history or insinuating government control into private prerogatives. The "pc" revisionism that denies that the institution of slavery was the primary cause for the war is a far more insidious assault upon truth than relocating such divisive laudations.

A nation can honour and even respect its sworn enemies, but imposing monuments to such individuals on all Americans is pernicious. We are the United States, and as Americans, we do no force fellow Americans to see those who fought to keep their families in bondage for profit publicly idolized.

 

America was founded on secular principles. The birth of our nation was the crowning achievement of the Enlightenment.

Hey. You can copypasta all the irrelevant quotes you want, but the fact is that the United States has always depicted itself as a secular state based on reason. Nowhere in our Constitution is Jesus mentioned.

 

1. Fifty-one years is not a long time to judge society by. When I talk about change in society, I'm speaking in terms of centuries.

2. Society today is better than it's ever been. Our species is as peaceful as we've ever been. For instance, in NYC the murder rate per 1,000 people is lower today than at any point in the city's history. This trend is global, btw.

3. There's nothing wrong with government. There is logic to having the USDA and FDA and EPA, though I'm sure you hate these three organizations.

4. Conservative politicians use the national debt as a boogeyman to galvanize their frightened base, but the truth is that national debt is a complex subject among economists. You can't just look at the number and leave it at that.

5. Race relations are not worse than when you were a kid. It's just that black people are no longer willing to say "yes, massa." Maybe that bothers you.

6. The English language is not the official language of the US. Never has been. In the Southwest, Spanish has been dominant since the 16th century. I live in PA, and Dutch was common up to the early 20th century. In parts of the South, French was common. Yes, most Americans speak English, and people who don't speak it and live here usually pick it up eventually, but you have no legal or moral basis to whine about it.

7. No agreement on what America is or means? We on the left view America as a product of the Enlightenment, which is how the Founding Fathera viewed it. You view it as Jesus Land.

8. What does church-going have to do with anything? Is church-going better than mosque-going or temple-going? As an atheist, I am apalled that you need a minister to tell you right from wrong.

9. Journalism is perfectly healthy in America. You've just been conned by Trump and the right into thinking otherwise. (As usual, anyone who speaks truth that contradicts conservativespeak--be they scientists or journalists or anyone else--is condemned by you people.) In fact, journalism today is more objective than it's ever been. Don't believe me? Go read some newspaper articles from the 19th century. They're full of sensationalism, which was the norm back then for newspapers.

10. Those statues venerate leaders of an enemy nation. I don't want my tax dollars going to statues of Confederate generals or Nazi generals or any other enemy memorials.

You ask how society has improved. In 2017, a man can publicly criticize the status quo and not worry about his safety. A black man can holds hands with a white woman and he won't have to worry about you guys lynching him. A gay person isn't forced to "conversion therapy." If a child has a learning disability, he isn't called a "p*ssy" by daddy. Momma isn't forced to be a submissive housewife, nor is she beaten for "stepping out line," nor does she have to accept work place sexual harassment, nor does she get shamed when a man rapes her.

 

America's cultural history? Okay. Then let's have a statue dedicated to the generations of faceless slaves who spent their entire lives working the fields. Let's have a statue to remember the Chinese laborers who built the first railroads in America. Let's dedicate a memorial to the generations of boys and girls who worked the factories 14 hours a day for pennies.

I really hope they put Harriet Tubman on the $20 bill. People like you will hate it, and that's why it's so important to do.

 

How so? I am proud that the founders of my country were intellectual giants. Why do you wish to venerate Confederate leaders? I'm curious.

 

That is exactly what I mean. It doesn't matter what the statue actually means because the left wing subverted the real meaning to make it a rallying cry for immigrants and refugees. Again, give it to Israel. Let Israel have the poor, tired, and hungry colored masses of the world.

 

Nobody is trying to destroy any history by removing The Monuments. They're always will be people willing to point out to Confederate apologists what morons the Confederates were. What is true is that having monuments in our town squares to traitors and losers is ridiculous. Build some monuments to scientists and great Americans not murderers.

 

And people like yourself xwsmithx, are why the First Amendment is a problem. You believe people with different points of view can co-exist. They can, for a time. Sometimes even as friends. Until they have to make laws and organize a society. What you consider freedom, others might see as the government's tyranny via tolerance of stress inducing individuals and laws based on theistic speculation. And another's peace of mind is your tyranny. It all depends on perspective. Not everyone is comfortable living in this world with mental opposition. You are simply fortunate enough to be numb to it. Of course, it probably makes your life much easier and as far as that, I envy you.
Sweden does not need a First Amendment. What it needs is a government that will stand up to the theist social conservatives from Asia and North Africa pouring into their country, threatening their secular society. They even want to enforce laws in "Sharia Neighborhoods". Not unlike they United States's "Dry Counties".

 

Traitors and losers. That is precisely why I find the monuments pointless. If today, the United States helped South Korea defeat North Korea, the South Koreans would tear down every monument to "Juche" and the Korean Worker's Party. They would not keep Kim Il Sung's statue standing simply because he was a "fellow" Korean who fought against Japanese occupation.

 

The French revolution and the birth of the Soviet Union were the crowning achievements of the Enlightenment. You know how those turned out.

So why is your ONE quote from John Adams to enemies of the country and of a foreign religion more relevant than my 15 quotes from multiple founding fathers to the Christian American people? Nowhere in the Constitution is atheism or secular humanism mentioned, either. God and Providence are mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

 

But I don't understand the appeal of living in a back and forth "contest". The left at least recognizes the value of an absolute victory against opposing views. True many of them don't realize that the same weapons can be used against them, but conflict is necessary until only one side remains, and both the left and right will have to understand that one day. As for elections, I am always "out" regardless of the results. I have never seen a single person with a platform I could rally behind. Nor is there a nation where I can feel at home.

 

I apologize for the "double post".

 

Where are progressives going with the statues ...?

They are removing the butts from all the horse statues and randomly hiding them under the covers of conservative beds.
Sweet dreams!

 

nonsense, but keep trying to save those confederate loser from being pout in museums, cause lord knows we should put them on a pedestal in the town square or state house lawns

 

some only support the original constitutions, you know, where slaves were legal, when they talk about taking this country back, that is where they want to go

 

Don't forget that White women were also not allowed to vote. The original constitution worked just fine for the colonists of the 1780's because their main concern was not being subject to British rule. The right to say whatever you want sounded good on paper when people had generally the same views. They couldn't concieve of the different groups in the United States today being offended by one thing or another, of automatic firearms, of irreligion becoming a significant demographic, and of course they were all naive enough to believe masses of people with different points of view could get along when it came to establishing the country's laws.

 

making laws should not be easy, if the people want laws changed they have to vote in a lot of people that want the same thing, IE a super majority

lucky for us or this county would shift far right, then far left repeatedly, this gives us a more stable system

sure Trump can do a lot of EO's, but EO's can be undone on day one of the next President, only laws really have some staying power

 

It is amazing how many people claim to have psychic insight into the secret goals of people they disagree with politically. It is perhaps even more astounding when you consider that people who claim to have these psychic insights almost never spend a lot of time with or listening to those they disagree with politically. Instead, they work purely by fantasy and invention.

 

No she didn't. Dropped it? She lost - Trump won.