Where Progressives are going with the statue removals

Here's more:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...3b-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b-20170818-story.html

The difference between George Washington and Robert E. Lee
Max Boot, (c) 2017, Foreign Policy
(c) 2017, Foreign Policy
In his third - and most appalling - set of remarks on a violent white supremacist rally, Donald Trump not only engaged in moral equivalence between neo-Nazis and anti-racist counter-protesters, he went so far as to defend the grudge that brought the white supremacists to Charlottesville in the first place.

"Many of those people were there to protest the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee," the president said. "So this week, it is Robert E. Lee. I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down. I wonder, is it George Washington next week? And is it Thomas Jefferson the week after? You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?" The next day, Trump doubled down on this message via Twitter, suggesting that his defense of Confederate monuments is no passing whim but a deeply held conviction. Even the president's outside attorney, John Dowd, got into the act, circulating an email claiming: "You cannot be against General Lee and be for General Washington, there literally is no difference between the two men."

FROM OUR PARTNERS:
Trump: 'George Washington was a slave owner'
This is moral sophistry of a high order. At the most basic level, the difference between George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, on the one hand, and Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, on the other, comes down to this: The former helped created the United States of America; the latter fought against it. It's as simple as that. And it doesn't take a lot of knowledge of history - which the president plainly does not possess - to grasp that basic distinction.

This helps to explain why there are, in fact, no calls to raze the Washington Monument or the Jefferson Memorial even from those who believe that the United States should pay reparations for slavery. True, Washington and Jefferson were slaveholders, and they were acutely conscious that this shameful practice contradicted the soaring ideals of the Declaration of Independence. That is why Washington in his will freed his slaves after his death (although his widow continued to own her own slaves). Jefferson, for his part, freed five slaves in his will and the other 130 were sold by his estate to cover his substantial debts.

But Washington and Jefferson also created a system of government that, while stained by the original sin of slavery, nevertheless established certain "unalienable rights" that would finally be vindicated after the struggles of the Civil War, Reconstruction, and the civil-rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. That Jefferson and Washington were flawed human beings does not negate their greatness or the debt that we owe them for creating our country.

By contrast, what is it that we are supposed to be grateful to the Confederates for? For seceding from the Union? For, in the case of former U.S. Army officers such as Lee and Jackson, violating their oaths to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"? For triggering the most bloody conflict in American history? For fighting to keep their fellow citizens in bondage?

There is nothing praiseworthy about any of this even if, like all soldiers, many Confederates showed considerable prowess and bravery in battle. But then so did Nazi German generals such as Erwin Rommel and Heinz Guderian. The same could be said of Japanese Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto, who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor. Heck, even the 9/11 hijackers were undoubtedly courageous if also deeply twisted. Why not honor them while we're at it? The cause in which bravery is displayed matters a lot, and the cause of the Confederacy, to maintain and preserve slavery, was evil. Therefore we should not pay tribute to its leaders. Full stop.

Attempts to suggest that Robert E. Lee was somehow different - that he was a glorious cavalier who embodied a noble "Lost Cause" - are founded on little more than ahistorical mythology. As noted by Adam Serwer in the Atlantic, while Lee was troubled by slavery, he was not an advocate of emancipation. He was, in fact, a cruel taskmaster as both a slave-owner and a general. "During his invasion of Pennsylvania," Serwer notes, "Lee's Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property." Moreover: "Soldiers under Lee's command at the Battle of the Crater in 1864 massacred black Union soldiers who tried to surrender." After the war, Lee opposed giving the vote to freed slaves.

The most praise-worthy thing that Lee did was to conclude the peace at Appomattox in April 1865 and reject calls to wage guerrilla warfare against the Union. But his motives were only partly altruistic - he feared that an insurgency would destroy the social system dominated by the South's plantation class. The fact that Lee, like German and Japanese leaders, was willing to accept defeat after being soundly beaten does not obviate his fundamental crime in waging war on a country he had pledged to serve.

If there is any Confederate worthy of special recognition it isn't Lee but his subordinate, Gen. James Longstreet, who after the war battled white supremacist militias in New Orleans who were seeking to deprive freedmen of their rights. But it is precisely for this reason that Longstreet became anathema to his fellow Confederates. No statues to Longstreet were erected until one finally went up at the Gettysburg battlefield in 1998.

And, no, it isn't rewriting history, as Trump claims, to take down statues honoring Confederates. The real attempt to rewrite history was undertaken by white supremacists who made a fetish of honoring the Confederacy so as to preserve segregation - the oppression of freed slaves and their descendants - when it was under challenge from the 1860s to the 1960s. Mainstream historiography has already been revised to dispel the myth of the "Lost Cause" that was created by white supremacists after the Confederacy's defeat. Taking down the statues is simply allowing the statuary to catch up with the history.

There is still a place for Confederate statues and even Confederate flags. But that place is on battlefields and museums where history can be recounted in an even-handed and accurate fashion. It is not in public squares where such monuments serve as rallying symbols for neo-Nazis. The very fact that white supremacists are so bent on preserving Confederate statues, by force if need be, tells you all you need to know about why the president of the United States should not be defending them.

---

Boot is a fellow for national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

 

Not aware that it is of any significant size, and it is certainly not organized. Of course, if you get your "facts" from professional facists like Mark Levin or Steve Bannon, you'd believe that the antifacists are a well oiled machine determined to destroy freedom. That's how the politics of division is played.

The torchlight parade that desecrated the Lawn at the University of Virginia, was well organized, heavily armed, and full of hate speech and attempted intimidation.

Of course, one of their bretheren engaged in an act of domestic terrorism.

I do not approve of the actions of people who call themselves part of the internet meme called Antifa. But they have not been around for over 100 years. And they do not have recognizable leaders, or formal organization. The white supremacy movement has and does.

Right wing facists brandish weapons and shout vile racist slogans and try to provoke a response.

The best thing has always been to ignore them. Fighting back emboldens and empowers them.

It encourages their fellow travellers.

The far right wingers on this Forum and the ones that we all know are bigots have been in full dugeon excusing and defending the Nazi mob.

Right wing talk radio is full of deliberately divisive and generally false rhetoric.

This is Donald Trump's legacy. He played to the force of the far right wing as a candidate. He dog whistled to bigots.

David Duke and his friends got the message.

And for their efforts, we saw the most chillingly un American display that we have seen in decades.

 

That'd be hard for all of the maybe 300 KKKers and Nazis to accomplish - if even that. The rest are just false flag fakes and FBI infiltrators. I would guess at least 90% of those few carrying Nazi flags are anything but false flag fakes and law enforcement undercover.

The FBI has literally set up KKK meeting to try to suck in ONE person, for which exactly everyone else at the KKK meeting was an undercover FBI agent. Democrats and liberals pretending to be Trump supporters or someone else is common as dirt.

You admit that BLMers want to kill all police and all non-black people? That is your logic anyway.

 

Defending free speech is bad. Got it. BTW, Antifa has been around a long time.

 

A PLO flag was flown among the delegates at the Democratic National Convention. Accordingly it proven that the Democratic Party is front for a Palestinian Liberation Organization.

Most people really do realize there are virtually no real KKK or Nazis in the USA. Just a few attention whore punks scattered here and there, nothing else.

Donald Trump has condemned David Duke for over 20 years, but keep telling the lie if it makes you feel good.

The most chilling un American display was Dallas Police officers being gunned down after BLMs marched chanting for police to be murdered - and not ONE Democrat elected official, candidate or MSM talking head had one word of criticism of BLM.

The only events to rival it was the Hilary Clinton Democrat who shot over 100 people, murdering 49, in Orlando and the Clinton Democrat NYC bomber - with Democrat officials, candidates and talking heads against refusing to condemn calls for violence within Democratic circles.

At the same time as the guy in the car ran into a crowd, a man shot his neighbor in the head, twice, merely for having a Trump sign in his yard. The MSM and Democratic Party are silently 100% a-ok with that.

Please link to any message you posted condemning BLM protesters calling for police to be murdered.

 

But for General Lee, who openly opposed the South leaving the Union, the Civil War would have been a far greater slaughter and lasted many more years.

The South could have easily burned down every Northern city with a couple dozen arson teams. The South could have invaded the North early in the war on the tactics the North came to adopt - attack civilians, burn everything down, authorize the soldiers to rape Northern women.

Lee could have organized an insurgency fight and rather than surrender retreated into the deep South in non-uniform insurgent fighting, while sending arson, assassination and terror teams into the North.

The author's presentation of Lee's treatment of slaves, that he received only as inheritance, is also completely false.

Given Southern blacks were 100% uneducated and illiterate, he did oppose blacks having the vote. The result of blacks voting was Northern carpet baggers took over local governments and engages in massive theft, leading to 100 years of hatred that otherwise would not have existed.

This all is concocted nothing. No one cared about Confederate statues until the Democratic Party decided to use them as this election season's basis for race riots and racial divisions as it does in every election. They did it now because the Virginia governor is in a tight re-election race.

Nearly EVERY country has statues and memorials that date back to the era of slavery because virtually every country did. In the logic of the Democratic Party and blog author now, essentially every statues, memorial and monument in the world should be destroyed.

 

What most amazes me is how the Democratic Party believes that becoming the party of property destruction and erasing history is a winning tactic? But, from its start, racism, segregation, social divisions and causing social chaos has always been the Democratic Party's tactic. It is sad to ponder how many people the MSM and Democratic Party will deliberately get assaulted and murdered in their perpetual and increasingly failed political tactic of race-based hatred and riots?

"Vote Democrat. We cause riots and destroy things." The Democratic Party's new campaign slogan.

 

Ah.

So if one was a revolutionary slave holder, but hypocritical about it, and also raped one's slaves, one gets a pass.

Gottit.

 

Yes. And that puts Nazis and Liberal Progressives in the same boat, doesn't it?

Maybe you should concern yourself with protecting the constitution from attack from both directions.

 

I don't even know why anyone is discussing this. Some hate Lee, some don't. Same with Washington and Jefferson. History is filled with slave owners, because that's what powerful people in those times did -- not just here but around the world, across ethnicities; and among people who had not even been exposed to white men. It has little to do with slavery and everything to do with vandalism.

Vandalism is not justifiable for any reason.

 

You clearly made that up.

 

The antigovernment movement has experienced a resurgence, growing quickly since 2008, when President Obama was elected to office. Factors fueling the antigovernment movement in recent years include changing demographics driven by immigration, the struggling economy and the election of the first African-American president

Of these groups, 276 were militias marked with an asterisk, and the remainder include "common-law" courts, publishers, ministries, and citizens' groups. Generally, such groups define themselves as opposed to the "New World Order," engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing, or advocate or adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines.
https://www.splcenter.org/active-antigovernment-groups-united-states

 

Here's more:

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/baby-girl...-day-total-181604076--abc-news-parenting.html

A majority of Americans want to preserve Confederate monuments: Reuters/Ipsos poll
Reuters By Chris Kahn,Reuters 51 minutes ago
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By Chris Kahn

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A majority of Americans think Confederate monuments should be preserved in public spaces, according to a Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll, a view that is at odds with efforts in many cities to remove them.

The Aug. 18-21 poll found that 54 percent of adults said Confederate monuments "should remain in all public spaces" while 27 percent said they "should be removed from all public spaces." Another 19 percent said they "don't know."

Responses to the poll were sharply split along racial and party lines, however, with whites and Republicans largely supportive of preservation. Democrats and minorities were more likely to support removal.

Cities across the United States are debating what to do with hundreds of statues, plaques and other monuments to the slave-holding Confederacy. Some monuments already have been removed this year in cities like New Orleans and Baltimore.

The poll also found that the public was almost evenly divided over the deadly "Unite the Right" rally that was called to protest the removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee in Charlottesville, Virginia.

The rally was organized by white nationalists and drew members of the Ku Klux Klan, neo-Nazis and white supremacists, as well as left-leaning counter-protesters. It quickly erupted into violence, and a 32-year-old woman was killed after a car plowed into a crowd of counter-protesters. The man who police say was driving the car was described by a former teacher as having been "infatuated" with Nazi ideology. There were people among both camps who came carrying sticks and shields.

Trump later blamed "both sides" for the conflict. "You had a group on one side that was bad," he said. "And you had a group on the other side that was also very violent."

His comments were met with a chorus of rebukes across the political spectrum, including Republican Party bosses and business leaders. Trump later disbanded two presidential business advisory groups after a growing number of CEO members quit to protest his comments, and all 17 members of Trump's arts and humanities committee also resigned.

Yet, according to the poll, 31 percent of Americans described the rally as "an even mix" of rioting and intimidation by white supremacists and left-wing counter-protesters, a viewpoint that roughly lines up with Trump's comments. Another 28 percent saw the white supremacists as the aggressors and 10 percent mostly blamed the left-wing counter-protesters. The remaining 32 percent said "other" or "don't know."

The Reuters/Ipsos poll was conducted online in English throughout the United States, gathering responses from 2,149 people, including 874 Democrats and 763 Republicans. It has a credibility interval, a measure of accuracy, of 2 percentage points for the entire group and 4 percentage points for the Democrats and Republicans.

(Reporting by Chris Kahn; Editing by Leslie Adler)

 

Yet Lincoln's statue was attacked in Chicago I think it was. What makes you think the left and Antifa will stop at just confederate statues?

 

Here's more:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/daughters-confederacy-feel-very-hurt-163243414.html

Daughters of the Confederacy Feel ‘Very Hurt’ by Calls to Remove Confederate Statues
The Cut Claire Landsbaum,The Cut 9 hours ago

A number of Confederate monuments have been taken down across the country after white nationalists clashed with counter-protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, ostensibly over the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee. And as calls to remove the statues increase, the group that helped to erect many of them is taking it personally.

The United Daughters of the Confederacy, a national organization made up of women whose ancestors served in the Confederate army, are “reeling,” Susan McCrobie – the Kentucky chapter’s former division president and current historian – told the Wall Street Journal. Recalling the removal of the Confederate monument from the Hollywood Forever cemetery, another UDC head said she “feel very hurt, like this is not my America.” Hmm.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, there are about 700 monuments and statues commemorating the Confederacy in the U.S, and McCrobie says the UDC was the “key organizer and fundraiser” for most of them. The group’s efforts were partially responsible for spreading the myth that the Civil War was not, in fact, fought over slavery, a Sam Houston University professor told WSJ. Along with erecting monuments that one historian said “were placed prominently in public areas and sought to pay tribute to the Confederate cause and convey white dominance,” the UDC established textbook commissions to make sure children were learning a “fair and impartial” history of the war.

Nowadays, the organization has mostly moved on to funding scholarships and honoring veterans, but its members are alarmed at the fallout from Charlottesville – including the passion Richard Spencer’s ilk has shown for defending the statues. “The UDC has nothing to do whatsoever with white supremacy,” McCrobie said. Nothing at all.

 

Columbus was a rebel private, right?

 

Columbus and Lincoln - famous KKKers both.

 

The faux outrage by Democrats is going to blow up in their faces in the 2018 elections. The Democrats have lost over 1000 Democrat held offices. Lost the House of Representatives. Lost the Senate. Lost most governors offices. Lost most state legislatures. Lost the Presidency. Lost the Supreme Court appointments.

DESPITE THIS, Democrats - the perpetual party of racial segregation and division - STILL believes their best tactic is to do everything possible to generate race-based riots and to incessantly attack white people.

Bizarrely, NOW the Democratic Party wants to RE-FIGHT the Civil War. Extra bizarre, since Democrats LOST the Civil War!

The Democratic Party - perfecting the art of losing to maximize reasons to whine.

 

Are you from the 1950s?

"Why, golly, we let one colored family into our neighborhood, and the next thing you know they'll be dating our daughters and such!"

 

Christopher Columbus? There was no KKK back then.

 

Actually, it was the conservative element that lost the Civil War. They ultimately became Republicans when Kennedy supported civil rights.

As for the rest of your post? It sounds like Rush Limbaugh masturbation stuff.

 

*wooooooooosh*

 

He was being sarcastic. Another member said that the left was only going after KKK statues but Abe and Christopher are not part of the KKK and they have had statues being targeted including the Abe Lincoln statue in Chicago being attacked.

 

It was Democrats and not 1% became Republicans with Kennedy. A great number of voters switched with LBJ's Great Society in which he established a welfare life style, particularly targeting blacks.

 

We be going to the scrap yard to sell all that bronze to true conservatives who are not picky about how to make a buck