Who is the most moral upstanding person?

OK - well that makes sense. otherwise there would be no point at all. it would be like pretending you were in order to escape punishment, oblivious to the fact that God can see into your soul.

but even so, it still doesn't explain why the christian is showing themselves to be stronger than the atheist by turning away from "sin". If they love God that much, then pleasing God should trump the temptation to sin.

us poor atheists however, have to make the choice to do the right thing without that incentive ... so its harder for us!

 

I will agree with you. It would be harder for an Atheist. Because we are taught to depend on God to fight temptation.

Ha! Guess you were right all along.

 

but it doesn't matter ... most christians I meet are good people, and I think what motivates them is much the same as what motivates me ... its just you've got an extra reason for wanting to do the right thing

 

You probably didn't read this post.

I know there are other examples of Christians and other examples of atheist. I didn't use them because I didn't want to. I'm concerned with those Christians who don't really want to do Christian things but do so out of a fear of punishment if they don't. vs Atheist who has moral values even though they aren't religious.

 

Is a person a Christian if he sins as much as he wants to knowing that all will be forgiven due to Jesus Christs death on the cross, therefore fears no consequences of his non-Christian acts?

 

Neither atheists or Christians are exactly monolithic, so it's a rather flawed poll in my view.

 

Christians claim they get their set of morals from the bible, atheists obtain their morals from within themselves.


Who is a better cook? Someone who takes raw materials and makes meals, or someone who buys boxed meals and heats them up? Same idea.

 

Twaddle.

1) Romans states that non believers are not condemned to hell on the basis of "unbelief"
2) You can not be "reborn" unless you first die
3) Most Evangelicals and Pentacostals do not follow Christs main teachings very well.

 

Where is that particular scripture found in Romans?

 

Romans 2:10

God will judge by the "hidden thoughts" of humans. Not by whether or not one believes in Christ as ones personal savior. It is the message of Christ that is important.

 

"
1) Romans states that non believers are not condemned to hell on the basis of "unbelief" "

Well, first of all, there is no mention of 'hell' within that passage of scripture.

Other than stating that fact, I will not further discuss these things with you on this open forum because of the un-belief of others. If you care to discuss it on PM, I will be happy to do so, as long as our discussion stays in that private estate.

 

interesting analogy.

Persoanlly I think the pre packaged varieties of faith are a little empty.

 

ok, now the low down.
I picked the two choices because they are both me. In my life I am at a fork in the road. I can either become an Atheist with morals or a Christian who is only a Christian because he fears going to Hell.

The more I study the bible the less I like God. You want to know God read the old testament. The new only tells you about Jesus and what Jesus thinks of God. Anyhow God is a petty maniacal tyrant. At least the one described in the Old Testament. There is no way I would follow him because I "loved" him. I hate the guy they portray in the Old Testament. I don't want to have anything to do with him. He treats humans like clay pots. Well I'm not a clay pot so (*)(*)(*)(*) you.

So I'm stuck with the two choices.

Actually I'm going with a third choice, Agnostic. I'm willing to be open minded enough that there could be a God, hopefully not the one wrote about in the bible. In either case God or no God I'm better that the bible is fraudulent. And if he is really a kind and benevolent God he will understand. If he's really Satan or some evil tyrant he might not. Whose to say that the omnipotent one at the end of time is benevolent he could be out right evil.

One problem with my plan. If there is nothing after death I really screwed up. I would've lived my life totally differently, more selfishly, more aggressively if I knew there would be nothing to show for it afterwards.

 

Third choice huh? OK. Were you so knowledgeable of the NT that you also know that the NT makes reference to that third choice ... the one you call Agnosticism? Well it does. It speaks about Agnosticism under the descriptive term "luke warm". "Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. " Read the whole chapter so that you know it is in context.

Good luck with that choice.

 

No it is actually be better than people that need an invisible crutch and a made up rule book to get through life. In fact in mental health everyone that hears voices and is lead by invisible spirits would be considered schizophrenic. I equate belief in god to mental illness. But belief in the context god is not seen as schizophrenia so not mental imbalance. It is just pure childish delusion. Like an imaginary friend when you're lonely.

 

OK, well fork at the road may where you are at, but it is not who you are.

your reason for behaving as you do won't change if you become a christian. if you believe in doing the right thing because its the right thing to do, then adopting the christian faith won't change this one iota.

you just might have an added incentive - that doing the right thing may add to the quality of your "eternal life."

yeah, and that is an interpreation that is based on a system we don't relate to.

there are many christians who do not understand the bible literally - and there are plenty of other images of God in holy texts.

if you were seriously wanting to become a christian, you would need to look within yourself, not in the bible, for whether that is the right decision for you.
So I'm stuck with the two choices.

well, you don't have to be an agnostic to regard the God in the bible as a somewhat less than accurate portrayal of God. but you are right - an omniscient, all powerful deity would be a bit above judging you for doubting!

not really.

I don't believe in God and I have always found you get a lot more rewards from being a nicer better person than you do for being a selfish nasty person, so what life after death has to offer is pretty irrelevant for me!

 

I didn't read that part. But I see it's trying to force me, and those like me, to become Christians through fear. Why follow someone who uses fear to force you to follow him.

 

lols ... as an atheist ... but not one of neutral's card carrying ones ... I equate belief with being the product of one's environment.

human beings consistently display continuing irrational belief (not just in religion) in the face of enormous odds without having any diagnosis of mental illness.

this usually reflects what they have always believes, what others around them believe, the way they make sense of the world with limited information, the kinds of coping strategies they use, and a few other things.

extreme religiousity however may well be associated with mental illness.

BTW - speaking of delusions, have you seen the stuff about the god helmet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

 

why believe in such a small minded and bad tempered God?

 

You mean people like the local police or the governor of your state or the president of the United States. The President uses force against other countries saying to those other countries while pointing the full force of the US military... "you will become a democratic nation." The police say you will do what I tell you or I will call in reinforcements to force you to comply. Oh you say that is a legitimate cause... ???? It is a legitimate cause for one country to force its culture upon that of another country? Or, does this notion of yours apply only to religion... ? In any other circumstance, the use of force to cause compliance is OK?

 

According to scripture your body is a 'clay pot'..

"Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

and

"Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

Heck, here in the good ole USA, we are recognized in law as vessels; and science has determined that our bodies are constructed with elements of the earth when composed in proper quantity with water,, you have clay.

 

I do agree it is environmental. It is cult indoctrination at an early age and disables the persons ability to think clearly without a crutch. It is a form of brain washing that all cults use. They learn it by a constant repetition of the system and lose the ability to escape.
The child abuse leaves the person so needy at the end that they have no other choice but to believe. That is the mental handicap I see that is schizophrenia at it's best.

The god helmet is the height of insanity.

 

Would that 'cult indoctrination' be similar to the type of indoctrination that children receive in their early school years where they receive their programming pertaining to 'social norms'? You do present a pretty convincing picture of what happens to children who go through the "normal" educational process.

 

probably more like the cult indoctrination of extremist political groups that also use myths and fables to make people believe certain things and behave in certain ways.

 

I have a real problem with what you have just written. I disagree completely that people cannot become better people while not following a religion. You assume that the only type of community that someone can belong that will hold that person to a moral standard is a religious one. That is absolutely not true. What about a family? Or even a close group of friends? Can people in a group not hold one another to a certain standard without the aid of religion?

I know from personal expirience that people can become better people after "losing their religion" as it were. I don't follow any particular religion and I can say that I am not immoral. What you wrote in the post above offended. Can you clarify where you came up with these ideas?

No offense intended. I know many people use religion to better themselves and enrich the lives of those around them. That is a great thing! But you've got to understand that it's not for everyone. And that's ok too.