Why nobody wants to join the Army this year

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Nightmare515, Jul 13, 2022.

  1. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    https://taskandpurpose.com/opinion/why-nobody-wants-to-join-the-army-this-year/

    The military is currently behind its recruiting goals for this year by 23%, a continuation of recruiting woes in which all branches of service seem to be throwing money at the challenge, but with the Army leading the way, unfortunately. The Department of Defense anticipates that a combined 150,000 service members from all branches will end their terms of service (ETS) each year. But in 2020 and 2021, that number was around 195,000, with 2022 appearing to follow the trend.

    This is an opinion piece for the more recent updated article from a different source that came out today is behind a paywall so I won't link it here.

    Once again the military just flat out refuses to acknowledge reality when it comes to recruiting and retention issues. They have their heads in the sand and put out vague talking points about what they believe the issue is. I will present the real list of what the problem is.

    1. Gen Z. The breed of up and coming young Americans today is just flat out different than in years past. Many thought "millennials" were going to doom the country. We all heard the phrase's..."damn millennials" over and over but the reality is that Gen Z is actually what "old folks" thought millennials were going to be. Not all of them of course, but the ideology of this new generation is just different for better or for worse.

    The military is structure, it's discipline, it's being told what to do, it's learning how to shut up, etc. Such a system is just not desirable to the majority of Gen Z who has adopted the ideology of happiness is the number one priority, fun, having to work until you're old is unfair, do whatever you want whenever you want, etc.

    Good luck convincing these kids to join a rigid and structured organization.

    2. The "woke" influences. Many aren't going to like this but this is the reality regarding retention. As I said before there are various generations in the military and the generation of troops who are at the age to either ETS out mid career or retire at this point are Gen X and Millennials. The ideology of these older folks is VASTLY different from Gen Z coming in right now. They by and large don't accept Progressivism nor the societal changes than the younger generation wishes to implement and are seeing the military rapidly implement such changes and want no part of it.

    Over the past 2 years I have over 20 personal friends of mine who have chosen to get out of the military or retire directly due to the emergence of Progressive policies in the Army. The most recent as of 2 weeks ago was one of my best friends with over 20 years of service now who had planned to continue on for another term deciding to hang it up. His decision came directly after the mandatory DoD mandated once per month "readiness training" that happened to be regarding transgender acceptance and proper pronoun understanding training for that particular month. He saw the schedule, leaned back in his chair and looked over to me asking if I saw the email yet and I said no. He read it outloud and said "Yup that's it, I'm done".

    He dropped his retirement paperwork the next week, he's currently on leave right now and will spend the rest of his time in the Army on leave and in a CSP course until his official retirement date. Over 24 years of service and planned on doing more but this was just too much for him. Or in the words of another buddy of mine with over 20 years who also chose to retire earlier this year: "The Army won't let me try this new medical procedure to possibly fix my busted knees but they'll pay to turn me into a ****ing woman now if I want. Yeah it's time to go **** this."

    Or as our Command Sergeant Major said to me in private yesterday while in my office shooting the ****. "I can't do this anymore man. I love leading Soldiers and I want to compete for the next CSM gig but I don't think I can do this anymore. What the hell have we done to the Army? In the past 10 years we went from don't ask don't tell to me going to a CSM brief and being told to make sure I let subordinate Leaders know not to misgender Soldiers or face possible EO. What in the **** is this? My son told me the other day that he no longer wants to join the Army and looking around I don't blame him. I'd always envisioned being the proud dad as a CSM being able to welcome my son into our ranks and be the first one to salute him. But now he wants no part of this and I don't blame him at all"

    It's sad. If the government were serious about fixing this then STOP THIS NONSENSE. Stop trying to force fringe minority societal abnormal positions onto the military. The military doesn't want this....
     
  2. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    Nightmare, did you read this in your head before you posted it?
     
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  3. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I did...The Army is facing a massive retention and recruiting problem right now that we thought was bad a couple years ago but has gotten even worse now. The Army's half-assed acknowledgement of the problem as presented in this article is the actual problem. The problem isn't recruiters not working hard enough or the antiquated recruiting process nor is it the lack of advertisement about what the Army is. This is 2022, kids today grew up with the internet they know how to research what the Army is they don't need some flashy ad or slogan to lure them in.

    The problem is the culture of the new generation of potential recruits and trying to get them into a system like the Army. The problem with the ones currently in the Army is the fact that the Army IS a culture and that culture they decided to join is rapidly being changed from within to support something that those currently serving want no part of. So the Army can't attract new people nor can it adequately keep the ones it currently has. And in classic Army fashion they refuse to openly acknowledge that and change because the Army is known for doing the complete opposite of whatever makes actual sense.

    Then again in this case the Navy are actually the ones who have gone full blown stupid at this point. I saw a recent official Navy video published about them explaining pronouns and whatnot and how to interact when a Sailor encounters somebody like that and may accidentally "misgender" somebody. I swore it was a gag video, some Privates showed it to me on their phones and I laughed thinking it was a BabylonBee video or something. Turns out it was actually real and they seriously pushed that out to the Sailors as a training program. The Army is usually the ones who go dumb first, at least this time the Navy took the reigns but based on the current climate we surely aren't far behind at this point. And that sort of thing is why the Army can't keep anybody past their contract dates anymore. We don't want this....I'm sorry if that sounds cruel or bigoted or whatever but that's the reality. A few years ago it was the wars and the non stop deployments and training exercises for war and never being home to see your kids grow up. Nowadays it's this.
     
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  4. MJ Davies

    MJ Davies Well-Known Member

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    I hope we've had enough conversations for you to hear me with the spirit in which it is intended - total gratitude for your work that gives me freedom and admiration knowing many can't do that and you it with pride.
    We are older parents so we had some years under our belts before adding children. Since our peers started earlier they had already been through the phases we were facing. Some would tell us that we needed to put a sign on the front door to tell any delivery people or visitors not to ring the bell, turn off all the televisions (I am not a fan of television so it was usually a music radio station) and be very, very quiet so the babies could sleep peacefully. We talked about that and decided against it because people, including infants and toddlers, will sleep when they are sleepy and creating some "not found in nature" atmosphere for that to happen can easily backfire. We were quickly proven correct when other friends bringing babies into the world often complained that they could not get their a little bit older that toddler kids because they needed complete silence. Well, yeah. As you and I know from our work histories, a very good way to punish people is to put them in solitary confinement because humans are pack animals and we need to engage and be around others and hear sounds of life around us. So, all the people that didn't stop to actually think about that "new parent advice" suddenly found themselves banging their heads against the wall because they couldn't get their kids to go to sleep or stay asleep.

    And, in much the same way, when we send our precious little ones off to school and let them catch all the other little kids' cooties (lol) we quickly learn what they are good at and what they aren't good at and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong with saying "I love my kid. I would die protecting them but they aren't good at X." My point being all kids shouldn't get a participation award. And, when we create these "artificial environments of total 'perfection'", it's very difficult for them to adjust to a world that just doesn't care if they can color inside the lines. So, it naturally follows that we're stuck with a bunch of self-absorbed, apathetic, disinterested, relatively lazy and unfocused monsters that think they should have a corner office, expense account and six figure income right out of school. Of course, they aren't all that way but there are enough of them to be kind of annoying to the rest of us.

    I can't think of his name but I saw a stand up comedian talking about his grandfather enlisting when he was 16 or 17 and storming the beaches at Normandy comparing them to the "kids of today" that say "I would have joined up but I have peanut allergies." It was much funnier when he said but you get my point. ;-)

    I do not agree that it's wrong to teach tolerance. A huge part of our alcohol and drug abuse problems, suicide and in the past several decades, mass shooting is mostly founded on feelings of exclusion. When we are not able to have our voices heard in a safe, positive environment, it is very easy to fall into any of the above negative coping skills. This is why I'm opposed to the people opposed to CRT and some exposure to non-heterosexual topics as a way to combat the mob rule that everyone must look, love and/or worship the way they do or they must be hated, shunned, ridiculed, shamed, etc.. Minorities (of any type) are not asking anyone to do anything other than not be hateful toward them. They aren't asking for special treatment. They aren't asking people to switch to whatever makes them a minority in our society. They aren't holding people at gunpoint demanding to be loved or even liked. They are simply saying "I am a person. I exist. I have a right to be here. I have a right to be respected as much as you want to be respected." That's it.

    Therefore, if providing that basic human respect to a person solely because they are another human being is not on par with what you and your peers think is reasonable, I don't understand your first point. You all, collectively, don't want to be caught up in what you consider to be <insert all the flavors of nonsense you want here> by being taught tolerance, it's in your best interests that nobody wants to enlist. In short, it's a bit unfair to complain about them not wanting to be there while going on about not wanting some of them to be there. That's why I asked if you reread that in your head. It's not a congruent argument.

    As always,
    With gratitude,
     
  5. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    It's not about being taught tolerance it's about being forced to accept a subculture that the majority don't morally believe in and facing possible punishment for not accepting it. The entire concept of "pronouns" and "misgendering" people is a Progressive Left Wing concept in and of itself that the DoD is mandating military personel accept and adhere to. That's wrong. It's about the DoD deciding to mandate that an entire work day per month will be dedicated to this sort of thing.

    What if the DoD put out a policy that said Soldiers are mandated to pray to the Christian God during morning formation or face UCMJ for refusing to bow their head? Or mandated that the 1st Friday of every month will be devoted to teachings of the Gospel? We'd be teaching tolerance, teaching Soldiers about an ideology they may not be familiar with so that they can better understand and learn acceptance towards the Christian Soldiers in our ranks. Society would have a problem with that. As would I.

    As it stands now such classes are given regarding religion but they are voluntary as is choosing whether or not you want to acknowledge it and bow your head when the Chaplain stands up there and gives a prayer during a formation or event. Mandating that you WILL go or mandating that you WILL acknowledge and participate would be wrong. Not everyone believes in that ideology, nobody should be forced to accept it if they don't.

    The concept is simple and it's what folks have been saying for decades at this point going all the way back to the gay marriage debates of the 90s and early 2000s. And it's exactly as the aforementioned Command Sergeant Major said to me the other day. "I don't care what Soldiers do or what they believe or anything. Just do your job and don't force it on me or any other Soldiers". That's it. And also don't expect special treatment. We had a lesbian Commander here a couple years ago, nobody cared. Seriously nobody cared at all even the most hardcore religious among us who had a legitimate moral problem with that. She wasn't treated any differently than any of her fellow Commanders by anybody. She wasn't a bad Commander nor was she a particularly good one she was just an average run of the mill forgettable Captain that passes through all the time. Nobody cared because she didn't make her sexual orientation a point of forced acknowledgement nor did she ever even mention it except in casual discussion when talking about her wife the same way a husband would talk about his wife. If she ran around here saying hey look I'm a lesbian all of you acknowledge that and care then folks would have had a problem with it. She wasn't the only one, our senior medical officer was a lesbian as well and as we speak there are a handful of gay and lesbians of all ranks in my own unit. Nobody cares at all nor does anybody treat them any differently than anyone else. Some suck, some are good. If they suck they get chewed out, if they are good they get respected. The exact same way everyone else is treated.

    The bottom line is that folks seriously care way less about this stuff than is widely believed. Just don't force it down peoples throats. We actually had a female to male transgender show up at my previous unit as one of the first ones who went through that transition once it was legalized in the Army. I remember sitting in the office with the old Boss and Sergeant Major when he came in to inprocess. We grab the paperwork and start signing things and he introduces himself and after a few seconds decides to throw it out there that he used to be a she and transitioned to a man now. Right on cue the CSM says "OK good for you what do you want a coin or something Private? Your assigned Company is currently being skull dragged in the motorpool for being late to formation this morning, get out and go join them you have 30 seconds". It's not personal, nobody cares what you are or where you came from or your life story. You're a Private now, go do Private things, we treat all Privates like that regardless of race or religion or sexual orientation or anything else.

    If the military would just lift the restrictions and allow these folks into the service and be done with it then the overwhelming response from the force would be "whatever". The direct forcing of everyone to attend seminars and classes and whatnot is what is irritating people to the point where they are choosing to just leave.

    Thats the retention problem. As far as recruiting new young people the problem is the military is doing it backwards. Roughly 71% of young Americans are flat out ineligible for service in general due to medical conditions or obesity. Out of the small 29% pool to choose from the vast majority of those of Gen Z who are willing to join an entity such as the Army are Right Leaning, not Progressive. Implementing more Progressive policies in the military is alienating the majority of the small pool of potential recruits the military even has to choose from at this point which is contributing to this problem.

    In layman's terms Gen Z Progressives don't tend to join the military and making the military more Progressive isn't going to attract very many of them regardless. Gen Z Conservatives are the main pool of young people the military has to choose from. Conservatives don't tend to like Progressive policies so they are choosing not to join the Army either based on what they are seeing is happening. Best solution to ACTUALLY fix this problem is to cut out the Progressive policies in the Army. Gen Z Progressives aren't the target audience, they aren't going to join anyway by and large so we shouldn't be catering to them.

    Or we can continue on course and watch as the old guard quits in droves because they don't like whats going on and the Army can't find enough new recruits to sustain the ranks because they are upsetting the potential recruits they have to chose from by drastically changing the culture of the Army to something that young Conservative Gen Z kids don't want to be a part of.
     
  6. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    I remember hearing these types of dooms day predictions after don't ask don't tell became a policy, then again after don't ask don't tell was done away with and openly gay people were able to serve.

    The truth is that most people join the military because it is the best career move available to them.

    When I joined in 1997 i did it because I had a baby to support, and i wanted the college money. Most of the people I served with had similar financial reasons for joining.

    I'm sure this changed briefly after 911, but has trended back gradually ever since.

    The military needs to up the benefit of serving. That is the only thing that is going to increase recruitment.

    It's not about "woke" policies, no matter how much FoxNews claims it is. The recruitment issues are just a continuation of a trend that predates "woke".
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  7. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    The introduction of woke policies absolutely has a direct effect on the retention issue. The recruitment issue is a bit more complex and is largely based on the ideology of the current pool of recruitable candidates. The military really isn't even "that bad" but it's all relative to someones personal ideology and their upbringing. It's a stable career, you get a free decent quality room or if you are married they pay you extra to rent a house or pay a mortgage, healthcare is free for you and your entire family, breakfast lunch and dinner is free at a decent cafe. They'll pay for your college, and virtually all the money you get paid is disposable income because everything else is taken care of for you. As a new Soldier you don't even have to think or make decisions you simply show up on time and do what people tell you to do. And if you don't do something REALLY bad then you can usually stay in the career and continue getting promoted with pay raises for as long as you so desire. And if you decide to retire you get a pension (well a blended pension now but still a pension and even the TSP has the best company match rate in the country).

    In turn you're going to move around often and likely not always to places you want to live, and you're going to get fussed at sometimes by people who have been in longer than you. It's structure and discipline and quite a bit of shut up and do what you're told. For some that is easy and such a lifestyle is worth it. To many in Gen Z with a more rebellious outlook in life such a lifestyle isn't worth it even with the perks.

    How many more benefits of serving can the government reasonably expect to give people? Servicemembers already have more employer benefits than nearly any other company in the country and they still can't attract enough people.
     
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  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    No amount of added benefits will entice a generation of people who expect comfort, and low stress. Military service can be challenging and uncomfortable. We may be reaching an end point where we can no longer field a military to match our grandiose ambitions or commitments.
     
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  9. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Today I was walking down the hall to my office and a young E-4 stopped me and asked to come talk to me in my office. He tells me he is about to get smoked (well excuse me, receive corrective training) by his NCO and wanted to know whether or not it was legal for that to happen to him. I told him I honestly have no idea, the rules on what they can do to you now are DRASTICALLY different from when I was a young Soldier and I have no idea what is acceptable punishment anymore nor do I care to know because I don't have Soldiers under my authority anymore. He then pulls out his phone with the supposed regulation already pulled up on it and reads it to me and I stop him and say ok what did you do first of all? And second of all why are you telling me and what exactly do you think I'm going to do about it? He wanted to know if I interpreted the regulation the same way he did and wanted me to go tell his NCO off...I told him no, go see your NCO before I go see him for you and let him know you're in here talking to me trying to get me to go tell him off and he's going to make your afternoon dramatically worse than you think it's already about to be.

    This is the sort of thing I'm talking about...sure we've always had Soldiers like this but we are getting more and more of these types on a daily basis now. I'm honestly laughing about it as much as I'm disgusted by it. I mean the BALLS on this kid...There are no less than SIX levels of Chain of Command between him before he gets to my level and he chooses to bypass all of that and go directly to the top trying to tell on his NCO for having the audacity to **** him up lol....And I'm not even in his CoC, I'm not part of the CoC in that regard...When I was junior Enlisted you were scared of stripes, mortified of rockers, and never even looked in the direction of Senior NCO's or Officers unless they decided to talk to you directly...and I'm at the echelon above all of them...Young me would never even DREAM of talking to current me especially not about some nonsense like my NCO is trying to smoke me for being wrong will you go stop him....

    This is a generational thing...It's going to get harder and harder to entice young people with the mentality like this E4 has to join the Army. We're still getting a few goods one coming in but holy crap are we getting a whole lot of this sort of thing nowadays. Way more than I've ever seen before and I've been doing this awhile....
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe if they were not trying to force the controversial vaccine on people.

    If they announced that those in the Army would no longer be required to have that vaccine, I wonder how much recruitment levels would rise.
     
  11. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    It’s not just in the US. The UK has time out for Muslim soldiers to pray and we’re overboard with the diverse thing. It’s a different world now than when we were young. It’s why I secretly smile when I hear people say we’d be able to take on Russia and China and easily win.
     
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  12. Pro_Line_FL

    Pro_Line_FL Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nobody? Your own OP says 150 000 have already joined.

    Old people have a habit is always kicking mud at the generation which is becoming adults. Same has always been true. What do you think the pot smoking hippie boomers were called by the older generations?

    "Back in my day people would NEVER do that". LOL. Millennials turned out just fine, as will Gen-Z.

    IMO the biggest reason for the dip is the possibility of war in Europe, and the Gen-Z parents are saying NO WAY to their kids. Most Gen-Z are too young to serve anyway, some of them being only 10 yrs old.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
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  13. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I just came across another article about the recruitment crisis this morning.

    With Few Able and Fewer Willing, U.S. Military Can’t Find Recruits

    It doesn't mention your concerns of course (it is the New York Times) but it did deal with how few young people are actually qualified to serve now days.
     
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  14. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    Yeah these articles never mention my concerns which is why I decided to make a thread addressing them. I have the raw data, the exit surveys, command climate surveys, current state of the force surveys, actual people to talk to who are leaving, etc. I get this stuff before it gets heavily filtered through the bureaucracy and sent to the news to only publish what is "acceptable" to publish.

    Same reason I discussed the issue with the military's aviation shortage a couple years ago on here as well. They were just flat out lying in every article they published regarding that crisis with the Air Force finally openly admitting what they were being told on their exit surveys while the Army just continued to ignore it and make up fake reasons as to why they couldn't keep aviators around.

    I have the actual data in front of me from surveys conducted regarding retention and various other things such as morale and overall climate. The reasons Soldiers have stated they are choosing to not re-enlist past their current contract or retire in lieu of continuing service are as follows based on recent data.

    1. The COVID protocols, mainly the way the DoD weaseled their way into convincing people to take the covax and then backtracking and mandating masks again after the fact. That was cited multiple times with Soldiers saying they want no part of an organization who will just flat out lie to them like that.
    2. Mandatory "Readiness Day Training", the required 1 day per month to teach social issues and CRT and things of that nature which was the basis for this thread in the first place.
    3. The primary reason stated by those in the retirement age group was the indiscipline of the new troops and the inability of senior leaders to enforce standards and policies within the organization anymore without threats of IG complaints or EO complaints. We've created a protected class of new Soldiers that has nothing at all to do with race, gender, sexual orientation, etc but rather it applies equally to them all. As stated in the previous post I made this sort of thing is nowhere near uncommon anymore, you yell at one of these kids or discipline them and IG is calling you the next morning. Luckily the IG complaints still go nowhere most of the time but slowly and steadily more and more are popping up. Senior Leaders didn't grow up in an Army like this and no longer want a part of it. The second reason stated in this age group was again the mandated Readiness Training days and the forced teaching of things like CRT and social justice issues.

    1 and 2 flip flop based on the unit surveyed and I'm guessing it has to do with the way the particular unit handled the whole covid thing. Either way those are the top 3 reasons based on actual real data not filtered data. Given those reasons we can of course see why this raw data isn't acknowledged and published in the news based on current society. But that's the real reason behind the retention problem.
     
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  15. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    It’s the same in the UK and I suspect on the continent of Europe too. From schools, to corporations and from Churches to the military, it’s a political assault on the institutions. I joined the British army in the early 1970s and it’s no place for diversified snowflakes. One day someone is going to have to stand up and say what everyone is scared to say anymore and that’s, enough is enough!

    Here’s a short recruitment video of Russia vs USA and China vs Britain. Notice how both the US and Britain focus on sexuality whilst the Russians and Chinese on strength. In a conventional World War against other major opponents, we are not going to win.

     
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  16. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I guess it wasn't included in your surveys but I wonder what sort of impact our ignominious withdrawal from Afghanistan had on retention? I never served over there but know lots of people who have and the feelings about what happened are...complicated. A lot of people are still processing this.
     
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  17. Kris P. Bacon

    Kris P. Bacon Newly Registered

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    What will happen is their will be a collective amnesia and Afghanistan will be forgotten. Just as the promised ‘Fire and Fury’ over North Korea, or the failure to control the Middle-East oil supply. The US will quickly find a new enemy and the pessimism will once again resurface.
     
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  18. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I blame it on the high carb\low fat standard American diet
     
  19. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  21. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the government is starting to notice

    "NATIONAL SECURITY CRISIS! Can Keto Win the Obesity War in the Military?"

    https://advancedmolecularlabs.com/b...-can-keto-win-the-obesity-war-in-the-military

    "The military has called obesity, “a national security crisis.” According to an article in ScienceDaily “A new study [published on April 30, 2019] has researchers hopeful that a ketogenic diet could prove useful in the military, where obesity is an ongoing challenge, both in terms of recruiting soldiers and keeping them fit for service.” The study that appeared in Military Medicine concluded, “U.S. military personnel demonstrated high adherence to a KD and showed remarkable weight loss and improvements in body composition, including loss of visceral fat, without compromising physical performance adaptations to exercise training. Implementation of a KD represents a credible strategy to enhance overall health and readiness of military service members who could benefit from weight loss and improved body composition.”"
     
  22. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    Gen z is a failed experiment.


    This is what you get when you don't take the belt to your kids. While giving everyone a ****ing ribbon for participation
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
  23. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    nothing to do with parents not beating their children, had to do with this

    [​IMG]
     
  24. ToughTalk

    ToughTalk Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry but weight isn't why these kids are lazy, self centered spoiled little shits.

    Maybe you could find a way to blame this on Trump?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
    Kris P. Bacon likes this.
  25. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    it's about much more than weight, metabolic issues effect much much more than just weight

    Trump is a perfect example of what you speak... lazy, self-centered spoiled little shits. You want to raise a narcissist with a fragile ego, feed them the standard American diet

    this is Nixon's doing.... not Trump's
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022

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