Why should people be forced to get the vaccine in order to protect others who choose not to get it?

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by chris155au, Jul 31, 2021.

PF does not allow misinformation. However, please note that posts could occasionally contain content in violation of our policies prior to our staff intervening. We urge you to seek reliable alternate sources to verify information you read in this forum.

  1. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,415
    Likes Received:
    10,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yep. His own words saying cloth masks are as good as ones from surgical supply stores that were being saved for healthcare workers. I gave you the post number again.

    Your denials are making you appear disingenuous.

    I don’t care one whit about Fauci. I care that people died because of his terrible advice on masks. I care that people know about his lies so they don’t fall for more of them and be harmed as a result.
     
  2. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The science is still all about the vaccination and minimizing exposure. It doesn't matter what mask you wear or if you wear one at all. Just do what makes you feel good.

    I don't trust this government to be honest with me, I think much of what they do is political and meaningless in the Covid fight. Fauci is leaf in the wind, he moves whichever way the political wind wind blows. There are at least three posters here that are giving us a more honest look at where the science is going.
     
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    MY side? What side do you think I'm on?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2021
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What does this have to do with what Fauci was saying about masks and what South Korea was doing with masks?
     
  5. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
  6. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did you read that article when you posted it? He didn't tell them they couldn't make them, he banned exporting them till the American needs were met. 3M had a stockpile of the masks for export. Nobody worked harder to supply the equipment and products that we needed to fight the pandemic.
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No.

    He was a member of a task force Trump set up to make policy decisions and recommendations concerning the pandemic.

    As with most such task forces, I'm sure that no single member agreed with all the policy recommendations made.

    You seem to have had NO experience concerning this kind of decision making body, so I'm sure it does seem jarring to you that task force decisions would not subsequently be countered in the press by individuals who dissent from all or parts of the recommendations.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I agree with much of what you are saying.

    However, Trump frequently failed to use his power of defense production act to cause PPE and other needed supplies and equipment to be created.

    Trump also refused to stop FEMA from interdicting supplies ordered and paid for by hospitals in serious need of those supplies for treating COVID patients and protecting their health care workers.

    He also refused to help companies who still had mask making machines, but where the machines needed to be refurbished.

    I really do not see any supporting evidence for your claims of Trump going out of his way to help our healthcare providers, who were dying of COVID at a substantially higher rate than the general public due to their exposure.
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, you are so wrapped up with your hate for Dr. Fauci that you just can't even help but continue to totally misrepresent his contribution.

    You really need to move on.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't have any evidence for ANY of this.

    There are actual studies of mask types. It is well known how effective different mask types are. For example, masks with valves, bandannas, masks made of stretch material, gators, etc., are essentially worthless. On the other hand, multilayer cloth masks of particular fabric combinations are as good as surgical masks.

    How well this was known at the outset is unclear to me. But, the issue facing our policy makers had to do with MANY factors involving availability, what the population could possibly be expected to do, what was known at the time, etc.

    In ANY policy, one can find significant holes by focusing on ONE of those factors.

    For example, our standards for lead in water are NOT what science based medicine wants. The standards are what they are due to OTHER factors.

    The same is true for particulates and chemicals emitted by coal fired power plants. The standards have NEVER been what science based medicine has wanted.

    This idea that our policy ensures that the best science is followed is just plain BULL. That is NOT how our system has EVER worked. And, for good reason.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you want to claim Dr. Fauci was lying about something, then you have to SHOW THAT.

    So far, that totally political BS effort has failed.
     
  12. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The demand that he invoke the Defense Production act and take control of various industries was a Democrat attack point and a smoke screen. He didn't do it because he didn't need to. When he turned to industry and made a request they responded and that both got the supplies needed as quickly as they could and kept American Industry out of direct Federal control. It was a great stance to take and it made him no friends from the Democrats or the people who were under the spell of the MSM.
     
  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, we VERY DEFINITELY did not have sufficient PPE.

    And, the result of that is that our doctors and nurses were dying at a far higher rate than the rest of the population - including faster than others considered high risk.

    Suggesting that demands to help save these lives was a political plot is just about as DISGUSTING an argument as one could possibly make.

    Let's remember:
    - the shortage was real
    https://www.who.int/news/item/03-03...quipment-endangering-health-workers-worldwide

    - there were unfixed supply chain problems extending at least throughout the first half year of serious COVID hospitalization rates:
    https://hbr.org/2020/09/why-the-u-s-still-has-a-severe-shortage-of-medical-supplies

    - TRUMP canceled the Obama administration initiative to build a strategic PPE creation capability:
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-admin-ducked-massive-mask-manufacturing-plan-wapo-reports

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inve...2dda5c-74fa-11ea-a9bd-9f8b593300d0_story.html

    - Trump canceled another mask contract as late as January of 2020:
    https://www.vox.com/covid-19-corona...19-masks-trump-white-house-prestige-ameritech

    - The Trump administration was CANCELING construction of masks months into the pandemic:
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/13/politics/fema-ppe-contract-cancelled-coronavirus/index.html
     
  14. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Science isn't one defined idea, it's full of theories, ideas and guesses followed by research. Of course it can change but what didn't change regarding masks is the size of the particles the masks most of us have worn will stop. They are to stop particles and liquid, not viruses. The recommendations changed as the political need dictated. Ain't got 'em so we don't need'em. Then it turns out we have to sell continuing the lock downs and getting vaccinated so we need stricter masking rules and so masks became effective. Everybody has to stay terrified because it makes them easier to maneuver, for their own good of course. This is like the blind men and the elephant and everyone seems to have a hold on a different part of this elephant. The elephant don't care, it just keeps on doing elephant stuff.
    You should read your source articles.
     
  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The recommendations changed in part due to what was learned about COVID, in part due to what the requirements for masks were, in part due to the SEVERE mask shortage and in part with what was possible in terms of having people slow the progress of COVID with masks.

    Setting a policy calling for people to wear n95 masks when they weren't available would have given the best protection, but was NOT POSSIBLE to have actually happen.

    In many cities (including where I live), those with good n95 masks were asked to donate them to local hospitals that were treating COVID patients.

    I donated several hundred that had been purchased earlier due to extreme levels of particulates in the air due to wild fire.

    Like many, I sewed masks using the best pattern and materials recommended at the time. Today, those masks are not considered good enough, because they aren't as good as what is now available.

    In fact, today I can't see my own doctor if I only wear the triple layer professional cloth mask made to the most stringent requirements. So again, the issue of policy limitations comes to bear. That mask of mine is rated as better than a surgical mask. It undoubtedly gets rejected on the grounds that mask policy can't be based on a local analysis of the mask each person wears when they enter a location requiring masks. They just say "surgical masks only". End of story. Easy to implement.

    So, all the crap about early 2020 mask policy not being scientific, being an excuse to attack Trump, being lies by various individuals, etc., is just plain BULL.
     
  16. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,415
    Likes Received:
    10,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So he disagreed with Trump, but lied for Trump. Then when he got a new boss that loves masks he continued to pursue the SAME POLICY of recommending AGAINST quality masks.

    LOL

    I’m well aware of policy decisions and maintain they should be based on science—not formed in complete opposition to the science.
     
  17. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2018
    Messages:
    18,415
    Likes Received:
    10,601
    Trophy Points:
    113
    How can I misrepresent a direct quote of him on the record? I included the whole interview for context.

    I do not hate Fauci. That is simply a strawman/ad hominem fallacious argument from you. But that’s what we expect from you when all the evidence is on my side and there is NO evidence to support your posts or the recommendations I’m critical of. I’m in no way misrepresenting his “contribution” to unsound advice on masks. He recommended AGAINST quality masks right along with the CDC after Trump was out of office and masks were in oversupply. That’s not really a contribution in my view. But even though he’s lied and killed many, I’ve been fair to him. I’ve often praised his speaking and presentation abilities as well as his intelligence. I’ve even said I like the man on PF. But I won’t abide lies that kill people. From anyone.

    If you will actually read my posts for content you will see I don’t hate Fauci. For one thing, hatred is counterproductive. You never make good decisions when emotional. I prefer to base my posts on evidence, not my feelings.

    That’s why you can’t provide any evidence to counter mine. I’m using logic and reason and evidence. You are running on pure unsubstantiated opinion.
     
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You've already acknowledged that Fauci was originally against masks.
     
  19. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, but you said "here is an example of Trump blocking mask PRODUCTION." You clearly meant to say, here is an example of Trump blocking mask EXPORTATION.
     
  20. Zorro

    Zorro Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    79,237
    Likes Received:
    53,744
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Joni Ernst introduces the "FAUCI Act" and I'm still laughing

    [​IMG]
    Pass It! We need the relief.
     
    chris155au likes this.
  21. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    41,176
    Likes Received:
    4,365
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The COMIC relief?
     
    Zorro likes this.
  22. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nah, I clearly meant what I said. He didn't block production which was the charge, he blocked production till needs here were met.
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    OK, I'll say it again. What the heck?

    What was best policy in March 2020 is NOT what is best policy today. Science has advanced on some issues. What is possible in terms of the factors that slow COVID has changed.

    So one would hope those who make policy decisions are changing policy recommendations from those of March 2020.

    Also, policy for the US as a whole is set by committee, not by a cacophony of individuals advocating various different behaviors. Dr. Fauci was one member of Trump's committee on COVID policy.

    Thus it was NOT his position to tell the USA that the policy being set by that committee should be ignored by the American public.
     
  24. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    13,888
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The science on masks hasn't changed, their political value did. I think Fauci told the truth about them initially and now he's lying to us. But that's just me.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2013
    Messages:
    61,296
    Likes Received:
    16,734
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, then you have to believe the FDA, the CDC, WHO, and all the rest are lying to you, too.

    And, that's a pretty big conspiracy for you to attempt to support.
     

Share This Page