Without God...

Quoting the Bible to someone who doesn't believe in the Bible is pointless. You might as well be quoting a Superman comic book.

 

A right is a human idea not an object like a mountain.

 

Yes, to protect you from the Leviathan. We quite agree there.

Without people agreeing in and enforcing a particular right, it doesn’t exist. Without people taking responsibility to protect rights then rights cease to exist. Today you may have the right to turn right at a stop sign but tomorrow that right may be gone with the change of a sign.

Government determines rights.

 

I guess the question boils down to if you believe our rights come from government then there is nothing wrong when a government fails to secure that right or even actively suppresses it. After all the right is theirs to give or take away.
I am of the opinion that it is wrong for a government suppress rights. This is based on the assumption that the government does not grant rights.

 

I just don't understand how you can miss something so apparent as the existence of God the Creator. Do you not have exposure to nature and it's wonders?

 

And I don't understand how you can take bronze age mythology and think that it is a reflection of reality.

I've seen the Grand Canyon in person. It's beautiful, it's majestic, it is awe inspiring. It does, in no way, indicate the existence of a God.

 

That's funny!

 

Why do you find it funny?

 

Nature can be beautiful. Now connect that to your God claim without using the God of the gaps fallacy.

 

There can be a lot wrong when a government suppresses a right. If it goes against the grain of culture, morality, practicality then it is definitely anywhere between a nuisance and a travesty. Culture, morality, practicality are all extensions of humanity. They do not spring from a god or pre-exist. Look at gun laws. Australia outlawed guns and it has worked to reduce violent gun deaths. Government protected its citizens from the Leviathan. In the USA, that law wouldn’t work because a large part of the culture embraces gun violence and considers it an essential part of living. What might cause bloody insurrection in the USA is accepted in Australia because the culture allows it. In America, the culture of a large portion of the population is the Leviathan for other portions of the population.

The same is true of trans rights. Right now a large part of the culture embraces trans rights and a large part repudiates those rights. As a result, trans rights remain in flux in North American culture. In Thailand, trans rights are more widely accepted because the culture views gender differently than in NA culture.

Some people believe that animals have rights and that we should not be subjecting animals to the horror of the factory farm system. Other people are like, “bring me some delicious bacon.” The extent to which we regulate the factory farm system connects directly to our culture.

If these rights exist outside of human culture then I should be able to view them. Show me a right. Do I dig it up? Grow it out of the ground? Distill it from the air?

It’s fun to think that rights pre-exist us because we are all influenced by the document created by America’s founding fathers but we forget that the system that they created was devastating to the indigenous people of North America, the slave populations that came to North America, to Asian people who built the railways in North America. The Declaration of Independence was a bunch of hypocritical nonsense designed to justify the self interest of blood thirsty colonists who just wanted land and gold with a sprinkling of French enlightenment thrown in to look fancy. Did the rights of those indigenous people exist? Those rights didn’t exist until the disgusting nature of Wounded Knee and other slaughters exposed the extent of the genocide against them.They claimed they wanted no taxation without representation but to this day many Americans have no right to vote for congress or presidents or senators. They forgot that those very taxes were paying the cost of defending their lands! It is a great example though of how a culture decided that they deserved rights not granted by government and took them by force if arms, even at the cost of betraying their own kin.

 

You are so certain about something for which there is no way you can be certain.... and you think you are the rational one! lol

 

I’m absolutely certain I don’t believe there is a god. That is not the same as saying I’m absolutely certain there is no god.
Meanwhile I could say the same to you.
The difference is I hold my view due to a lack of evidence, why do you hold yours?

 

First.. I feel His Presence in my heart and soul...
but for people ,such as yourself, there has been ample evidence, mostly circumstantial. You have to look for it. Ity's a long study, but well worth it.
Figure this tho', if I am wrong, nothing happens, but if you are wrong, the immortal soul will suffer nearly forever.. ? Would that irrefutable observation not set a truly rational man on a course of study of the presence of God?

Start with a snapshot of the Resurrection.
If the Resurrection is true, would not that be reason to accept the very likelihood of God?
If you agree,then study all you can find on the shroud of Turin.. it is literally a snapshot of the Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus the Christ.

 

If you are wrong.....
This argument is known as Pascal's Wager, it's a very poor argument for the existence of God. You could call it an argument to believe in God, but as for actually showing God exists....it shows nothing. And even if you accept the premise, it still doesn't get you any closer as to WHICH God. You believe in the Christian God..but what if you are wrong? What if it's actually the Muslim God that exists....or the Greek Gods? Or the Babylonian Gods? Out of the thousands of Gods that have been worshipped during the course of human history how does this argument tell you which god?

Snapshot of the Resurrection
The shroud of Turin is a known fabrication. There is no evidence that it as old as the time of Christ and there IS evidence that it is much more recent. Radiocarbon dating shows the shroud be from the Middle Ages, somewhere between 1250 and 1400.

 

That is false and has been since debunked... go back and review the latest scientific studies.

 

Both of you need to up some sources

 

I am using the Socratic method of teaching, in other words look it up yourself. I am tired of doing research for people who promptly ignore it.

 

That’s not the Socratic method of teaching.