Xi Jinping in Russia: China Will ‘Stand Guard over the World Order’

What makes them an enemy? Are they putting sanctions on US? Are they attacking US bases? They are a concern, which means we can still benefit from maintaining economic and political relations with them, while preparing for possible worsening of relations (which we are doing). They night one day be an enemy, but as of now, they still benefit from NOT being one.

That is not for the government to decide. If a corporation wants to move to a more expensive area, its for them to decide and consider the risks about straying or moving.

 

I never said the Ukrainians should give up their lands. I think that's a non-starter. But I do think NATO membership should be on the table. NATO doesn't need Ukraine. I could envision an independent and sovereign, but neutral, Ukraine with a permanent peace treaty with Russia. That could be the thing that Russia gets out of this conflict. Ukraine gets a withdrawal of Russian forces, and both sides get an end to this war.

I didn't know that China was suggesting that Ukraine give up some of its territory. I didn't know that they had made any specific proposals like that. But like I explained before, what bothers me is that they have taken the initiative to offer to be the catalyst for a diplomatic solution, while we did nothing of the sort during the lead-up to the invasion or since. And yet, I'm not surprised either.

 

They are trying to replace us as the superpower. They are smart enough to do it without arms. They use espionage instead. They steal information from us. They acquire American businesses and land in the process. They assault our culture in the process. It looks like they are about to arm another of our enemies. Relations need to get a lot worse. Sorry you are completely wrong.

True. I didn't suggest government should tell businesses where they should do business. I suggested that they should begin to ban imports from China with full disclosure to the business community so it can choose other countries and reduce the expense in doing so. I don't think Central America is any more expensive. For example, the average worker wage in Guatemala City is around $500 to $600 per month, the same average as China. But it is a suggestion for business not for government.

 

Again, both sides have made it crystal clear they are not interested in a compromise. Ukraine wants all Russian out before any talks can take place, and Russia says they are going to send more troops. China says they should 'freeze' the war, which pretty much means declaring Russia the winner. China also wants to end sanctions against Russia, but that they really wanted to talk about is a pipeline in Siberia to deliver Russian gas to China.

 

So now we have a shining example of what the Globalists desire. A World Order shaped by a totalitarian government. Guess you could call it "equity in government". That is why America must again become an exceptional leader of the free world. Not that we need to control the world. We lead by strength and faith in our own system! AMERICA 1st!

 

So they are an enemy because.......we are supposed to feel jealous? Even if they become a "superpower", it doesn't mean we can't be one too.

Moving factories and training new workers is not cheap.

 

Well, it's pretty normal for both sides in a war to claim that they won't compromise anything before they start talking. I agree that "freezing" the war for an extended time should be a non-starter for Ukraine. But the idea could be start of discussion that led to a 5-day "pause" of combat while the two sides held a meeting somewhere in some neutral country with a neutral mediator. With the pressure of a resumption of the war looming in a very short time, there might be a chance to hammer something out. I don't know if any of this would work. What I do know is that it should be attempted.

 

The one crucial fact that makes any form of so called “peace treaty “ with Russia is that Russia has never kept any ready, promise, or agreement. More recently after the Soviet Union broke apart Russia along with the new.y independent countries agreed to honor the boundaries of the old Soviet Republics between and among the new countries. Russia obviously violated the Budapest agreement and crapped all over the Minsk agreement. You cannot expect Russia to keep a promise because they never did and never will. Of course Russia does not want Ukraine to have a mutual defense treaty (NATO) because obviously if Ukraine was in NATO Russia never would have invaded Ukraine.

I do not know what “you “ mean by a “permanent” treaty but again there is no such thing as a “permanent” treaty when Russia is involved.

 

Not sure what the point is when both sides declare pre-emptively that they will not give one inch.

We have been trying to broker peace in Israel-Palestine conflict since the 1940s, and there both sides at lease pretend to be interested in a compromise, but if even one side said "not one inch" then there would be nothing to talk about.

 

Jealous? No. They want to be the only superpower.

Very true. It is one of the risks a company takes when it launches business in an inimical country. I think it is beyond necessary that we do it.

 

All this strikes one as very Orwellian.

Three sides each claiming to champion human rights and moral superiority over the others, both sides calling the other hypocritical.
Yet maybe neither side is entirely good and some people suspect they may in fact have more similarities in common than differences and it's just a fight for power.

China claiming they want to "Stand Guard over the World Order" suggests they want to take over the current role of the U.S. as the global superpower and dominate influence over world affairs.

 

You have to ask yourself “would I prefer to live under relative freedom in the “Anglo-Saxon” world, or live under communism in the Chinese world?”

 

Sounds more like you want US to be the only one. Soviets were a "superpower" while we were one too.

Its not "we" if the corporation shoulders 100% of the risk. They won't invest their money for politics. They'll do it only for money, or out of fear of losing money.

That would make isolationists in US very happy.

We would not live under China no matter what they do. Did we live under USSR when they were "superpower"? No, we did not. As a matter of fact people argue the cold war years were the American golden years.

 

Actually, Xi has done more than suggest it. He announced it in a meeting of his version of a parliament.

 

I agree that it was our golden years but not because we didn't buckle to another superpower. It was because we built an amazingly great post war economy. We've been letting that slip for the past 20 years or so.

 

It slipped big time after Vietnam war bankrupted us, but it recovered and peaked again in 80s and 90s and even most of 2000s, until it caved in again.

The point was that the existence of another superpower didn't take anything from us, let alone make us "live under USSR", and same is true with emerging China.

 

Yes, I hear you. But what do we lose by trying? I mean, really trying. We lose nothing. Even if an attempt failed, we gain standing in the international community as the superpower that honestly tried to find a peaceful solution. For example, if we offered "no NATO membership for Ukraine" in exchange for a Russian withdrawal from Ukrainian territory, and we offered to broker a formal peace treaty between the two countries, and Russia rejected it all, we would gain that standing, and Russia would lose standing and legitimacy. And if we made such an offer, how many high officials in the Russian government might be sympathetic to the idea, especially given that they are not winning this war? What are the chances that Putin rejecting an offer that gives them something and gets them out of this disastrous war might actually destabilize his regime? I have a strong suspicion that, privately, there are Russians in high places that realize that this invasion has been a disaster. The offer of a way out with some sort of face-saving "win" for Russia that Putin rejects could be the catalyst for a move against him. Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. But what do we lose by trying? We lose nothing.

And that brings me back to my beef with the Biden administration which I've already voiced.

What I meant by "permanent" would have been better termed as "formal". A formal peace treaty. Not a truce. Not an armistice. A formal peace treaty.

This invasion has been a disaster for Russia. Their losses in equipment and personnel have been horrendous. Their conventional military forces have been exposed as being ... well ... awful. Almost third world level. As a threat to the NATO alliance, the conventional forces of Russia would be a bad joke. They would be annihilated by NATO forces if they ever attempted a move on a NATO country. Their conventional forces have been humiliated in front of the whole world.

Now, given the awful, pathetic state of their conventional ground forces, and if a formal peace treaty were in place between Russia and Ukraine with an iron clad commitment by Ukraine and NATO that Ukraine was not to join the alliance, why would Russia want to repeat this disaster all over again?

 

@Pro_Line_FL @PARTIZAN1 In addition to everything else I suggested, a lifting of sanctions against Russia as soon as the last Russian soldier left Ukraine.

No NATO membership for Ukraine, a lifting of sanctions upon Russian withdrawal, a formal peace treaty, and a way out of this military disaster.

I wonder if Putin has the standing in his own government to reject such an offer, and what do we lose by offering it?

 

As I stated before Russia does not honor treaties, agreement, or promises. Therefore a “formal peace treaty “ is useless.

If Ukraine is blocked from joining NATO the only arrangement that may almost work is for US and EU troops be stationed as “trip wire” forces and if Rusoa enters Ukraine, send missiles, aircraft, artillery, shells, rockets, or even breathes toward Ukrainian airspace or soil U.S., UK, and EU, and South Korea, and Australia, and Canada, and any other country where humans live would response with deadly military force.

There is no other way to prevent Russian attacks or infestation of Russians in Ukraine’s sacred soil.

 

It goes without saying that sanctions would be lifted as soon as the troops withdraw and Putin and his henchmen are turned over to war crimes tribunal.

 

People who think Putin is going to be turned over to a war crime tribunal any time soon are demented unhinged wacky out of touch with reality.

We can have this discussion in another thread, if you care.

 

The 50s to mid-60s most certainly was our Golden Age, and it's unlikely we'll see ever anything like it again. After WWII most of the industrialized world was reduced to rubble and the developing world was still in its infancy, so the U.S., its economy and our workers had little to no competition to contend with. Those conditions are long gone - the industrialized world is back on its feet and developing nations are joining it. Where we screwed up, in my estimation, is thinking we still lived in that world, and many of us - particularly in Washington - foolishly think, act and spend like we still do.

 

Having Putin and his henchmen turned over to a war crimes tribunal would be justice ... in a perfect world. But it is not a perfect world, and it is not going to happen. Insisting upon that would be a poison pill to any negotiation to end this war.

You and I can agree that Putin deserves it. But he is one evil man. The war is killing tens of thousands of Ukrainian men, women, and children. The battle space is turning Ukrainian towns into giant piles of bombed out buildings and rubble. The greater good is a Russian withdrawal from Ukraine and an end to the war. And the realist in me says that we must work towards what is possible, not what is impossible.

 

Putin, his cronies, the vast majority of the Russia people would reject such a proposal in public and in private. Even the Putin critic Navalny who I mistakenly thought was a “good” Russian wants Russia to keep the stolen Crimea. If Biden and the good countries of the world would like to offer a “peace” proposal go for it. I would insist on adding reparation to Ukraine to be paid by Russia and the return of all stolen Ukrainian children.

I think you know that such a proposal would DOA- Dead On Announcement.
Please remember that it takes humans to accept an honest agreement. Ask yourself who you would be dealing with.

He’s I will agree on one part I agree with you and that is we the US and the good people of the world have nothing to lose but also nothing to gain.

Try it for ha ha’s