On politics, that is. I enjoy the dialogue, but do many people approach it like it's about "winning". I read an American Philosopher, Jame Pierce, who advocated use of the scientific method - not for life, but for beliefs. And so often I see people more committed to defending their political beliefs without sound evidence than they do their religion. It use to be that people defended their religion to the death without significant evidence - I'm religious, but I don't believe that the way that I came to my faith is a transferable experience, so I don't bother. I readily acknowledge that if I didn't have certain religious experiences then, with my mind and the way I approach things, I'd probably be an Atheist. And in politics I at least think I do a pretty good job of what political positions I hold out of value (that is, I value freedom such that I'm okay with many negative results) and out of evidence (for example, I use to think that we should invest more heavily in public education,but the evidence doesn't show significant correlation between dollars spent per pupil and outcomes). But I hear people talk politics and with most people I don't think they care about finding the truth, they care about winning. And I've never had any thoughts of significantly changing people's views enough to reshape society myself, but if people are set in defending that 2+2=3, why even bother? I just find myself getting far more selective with who I'll even bother talking to about politics. It's seems that easily 30-40% of society is more concerned with winning than finding the truth. Still more are so venomous that I wouldn't want to deal with them even if I agreed with them completely. There's about 30-40% that, imo, are even worth talking to. Edit: #endrant Thanks for reading
Interesting. I admit, I play to win, but I don't mind considering other viewpoints. There are also some viewpoints that I believe are too dangerous to leave hanging without some sort of challenge or counter-argument (even to the point of pure stubbornness). Aside from that, some of my participation here is vetting some of the ideas I have. I put them through the grinder hoping to provoke attacks against the idea so I can either cope with the fact that the idea was bad or come out with a more refined idea. I have shifted some of my own beliefs based off of what others have said some time ago. One may not change minds right away, but can say something that readers end up dwelling on. Nah, no giving up.
Yea, I do..... People need to change themselves, no matter how much I can demonstrate they're wrong or demonstrate inconsistencies in their politics they still don't care... I was the biggest progressive when I was 17-21, but I changed - no internet poster ever changed me - well I suppose their lies did but... Yea, I will say something (cant help myself from saying something) when someone is just too wrong, but for the most part or in general I get no pleasure at all posting on political issues... If anything politics actually disgusts me, which is why I have been spending more time talking about science or music or just shooting the breeze with other posters... I find that a lot more appealing, interesting and fun than discussing tyranny...
You play to win what? You're never going to win. The truth is in the founding documents - and that is what wins.
Sometimes, I play to win arguments. I feel like I won some. I've made some concessions too. Founding documents? Out of curiosity, what do you think about the amendments?
I'm a Constitutionalist/Classical Liberal/Libertarian... I think the Bill of Rights is the most amazing document in human history next to the Magna Carta which inspired our founding documents..
Details, details! Amendments, Schamendments!! The founding documents are perfect and how dare we deign to criticize!!! That is a deadly sin in the eyes of the orthodoxy!! A pox on our whatever whatevers... Ok, I was having some fun with you.
I'll enjoy talking politics with anybody willing to be civil. I find it fun and interesting to think about the big ideas. I think it's pretty unusual for somebody to be mature enough to admit they're wrong in the middle of a debate, but if they think about it later it might nudge them in your direction sometimes if you were really persuasive and they're not completely closed-minded. Sometimes I just wish people understood what I feel like I understand about how the world works, and I contemplate how I could convince them but ultimately feel powerless to change the world around me. Given the general trajectory of society I'm expecting it to change to meet how I think things should be over time because it's only logical. I've never wanted to be famous since I value my privacy, but there is some desire to have people look back at something I said and say that I was one of the few who got it, sort of like how we think of early abolitionists in the time of slavery.... But then I start to wonder if I'm just really narcissistic and mistaken for one reason or another. I guess a little skepticism about oneself is healthy.
Not been here long enough to make any estimates but going by general experience you are in the ball park IMO. Yes, there are those for whom politics is a purely black & white, win or lose proposition. Those are posters who are stuck on their positions and nothing is ever going to change them. It is those who are more flexible who are worthy of debating. A good argument that makes me think, irrespective of which side it is on, it always worth the time it takes to read and comprehend. Even though I am an independent I miss the likes of Bill Buckley jr who had one of the finest genuine conservative minds I have ever encountered. This nation is the poorer for not having his insight today and no one else of his stature comes to mind. What I have experienced are some really good debates with those who are open to dealing with reality instead of sticking to dogma. Yes, the barking dogmatists are always in the background but they are irrelevant if the discussion is rewarding.
Oh I just come here to pass the time. Doesn't really matter. The only candidate I will vote for can't beat Clinton so I am defeated for 4 more years anyways.
Those who seek truth, and are open to consider opposing viewpoints, are a scarce rarity at this forum, whereas, those who want to "win" at any cost seem to be more and more common. The desire with them to completely crush the opposition, were that to ever happen, would herald the end of our republic. Republicans, democrats, liberals, and conservatives are all (*)(*)(*)(*)ing up the country, just in different ways. But they do it in ways that tend to balance each other out over the long haul, and make our country better. The pendulum must continue to swing, else the clockworks will fail. We cannot steer a straight course, and so we MUST continue to correct left and right as we approach the edges. If we do not, then we will surely crash. In 2008, we needed to steer left. In 2016, we desperately need to steer right.
I rarely talk politics or religion in face to face communications. I'm in a corporate environment, it's frowned upon. So that leaves the internet. The anonymous nature of the internet lends one to a more absolutist point of view. We can't read body language, tone..nothing...we have text. If hearts and minds are to be truly changed, a text based medium is not the way to do it. So yes, I agree...a politics as sports analogy is probably an accurate one, at least for on-line discussion forums. . We root for the home team no matter what.
The percentage is higher than 40%. Most people approach politics and issues like cheering for their football team. The media has neatly made two precise lists of opposite stances an issues the media declares matters this week. You then are to totally be loyal to one team and one list or the other - for which you support your team 100% and totally curse everyone on the opposing team. Battling is by ranting the slogans of each side back and forth. There is very little debate.
I enjoy the discussions about politics from more of a psychological and sociological viewpoint. I like looking at people's views and how they express them and from that I try to learn something about that person. The thing about politics is there is no winning and there is no right answer. Because of this, political discussion provides a blank canvas in which someone casts their life experiences onto and in much the same way as art and music, bares the soul and allows others to see an honest picture of the person. To me, that is the most compelling reason to be on these forums. For me, I do enjoy the competition between sides, and I see coalitions forming and strategies worked out which may or may not be orchestrated between members off of the boards. To me, this is pretty fascinating. Herkdriver mentioned the competition between sides is like rooting for a football team, and I like that analogy but it is infinetly more interactive than that in that we do not just sit on the sidelines. So this forum is pretty fascinating to me. I can see people getting fed up and giving up if you are trying to win. But if you are in it for the process, experience, or the exercise, then this is a pretty good place to spend your time.
j gave up a few years ago...you just can't talk to the extreme leftists...they have to learn they hard way on how they are being used and lied too..
Well, I look at politics from a Constitutional perspective... I mean you're either a tyrant or you're not... Sure I have my own personal morals and ethics - but those are my rules and I don't expect anyone else to adhere to them... I can't stand politics because politics are all about different sides telling the other side what to do, how they should live etc.... I don't like that and it really upsets me at times... Perhaps politics would just be boring if we just all minded our own business? yeahhhh but what is the fun in that right? lol..
So you post just to (*)(*)(*)(*) with people? Sorry, I don't post just because I have peanuts but no monkey...
Excellent point of view Troianii well said.Seeking truth and posting with substance should be the norm. Just as you have stated many threads are out just to win but nothing to back them up with substance and facts.
I come here to educate and be educated. Yes it is thrilling to "win" an argument, but is more thrilling when one someone thanks me for teaching them something they didn't know before. Remember, knowledge is power and power corrupts, so knowledge... oh wait... hold on, I think I lost the point I was trying to make. Oh, and I'm also addicted to "Likes".
What does it matter how others approach politics? Once one comes to the conclusion that it is all but impossible to change the mind of another the only logical course is to give up on attempting to do so. Once one has this mindset then debate becomes more productive, educational and entertaining. Those who debate to change minds cannot be reasoned with as their mind is set, those who debate to learn from the perspective of others will find debate informative and fulfilling. A closed mind cannot learn, an open mind can learn much. In all my years here I doubt I have changed many minds, but my mind has been changed much.
Who decides who wins and who looses a debate? Self declared victory is a hollow victory is it not? I do relate with what you said throwing your own ideas out there as a vetting process, this is something that I do often.
I post here because it's good practice in expressing myself clearly in a textual medium, and doing that is what I most like doing. The idea that I cannot use any tone, gesture, or anything but the word on the screen to get my meaning across along with rather fast feedback as to whether I am doing that is a major part of its appeal. There is also the fact I like politics and have clearly defined opinions in that area Coming here can become tiresome, and when it does I can only hope that the people who make it so are as glad of my absence as I of theirs.
