referendum: Leave the United States of America

Texas entered the union as a state

 

So you're not going to answer?

 

If Austin wants to secede from Texas, that would be an internal matter, but Texas entered the union whole and should be able to leave whole.

 

So you think there is no need to be watchful & active in our political processes, since we can all do whatever we want, anyway? No need to guard from despotism, control, & slow encroachment of our rights? You do not see a trend in restricting the freedoms of Americans over the last 50-100 yrs?

The reality of constant change cannot be ignored, & we cannot assume that all change is benign or good. Govts go bad, & despots take control. We cannot ignore the reality of social change & pretend we are free to do whatever we want. Sure, we can exercise our beliefs, if we wish, but there may be consequences if the Nanny State does not approve of our actions. They will fine you for too big of a soft drink.. or tax you for saving electricity, or penalize you for making free choices, or bully you for expressing yourself. It is all fine & good to 'feel' free, but if the collective institution designed to PROTECT these freedoms is no longer doing its job, but is complicit with the exploiters, it is the right of the people to alter & abolish it, & institute NEW govt, deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.

I am not talking about feeling free, but the reality in our collective institutions, which are either moving toward or away from individual freedom. We have been in a pattern of 'away from' for quite some time. THAT is the reality i am lamenting & sympathizing with the OP about our current collective organization.. aka, govt.

 

Any state, city, county, family, or individual can do whatever they want, if they can acquire enough power to do it. Historically, violence has been the Final Arbiter of human disputes (and regional organization), & i don't see any indication of that changing.

If Austin decides to secede, they can do it, unless the rest of tx says they can't, & puts up a more frightening deterrence to Austin's actions. The same is true with Tx, Ak, Hi, or any state that might decide to secede from the union. But if all the states are in disarray, & a large coalition of anti-federalism ideology gains traction, the decision to force the union will have to be made, & if there are not enough federalist states to compel the anti-federalist states to submit to their authority, the union will dissolve, & the American Experiment will be over.

We saw that happen in the soviet union, late last century. Now, the EU seems to be in that kind of disarray, away from a large central govt. If this same trend continues in the US, it *could* spell the end of the United States.. Perhaps there will be a continued rebellion from the large, distant, corrupt central govt, in favor of a small, local, corrupt govt.

 

I've no objection, subject to a few necessary ground rules.

1) Any resulting nations formed would have to be geographically contiguous and have at least one seaport.
2) Any citizen for a period of one year would be allowed to 'vote with his feet' and emigrate in either direction. Any violation of this (such as a 'Berlin Wall' to keep people in) would result in immediate military intervention.
3) All arms of the United States military would remain in the possession of the United States military.
4) All members of the United States military would be allowed to resign without penalty, if they choose not to honor their oath of office (subject to provision 3).

For the record, I don't believe even the most die-hard conservative judge would ever uphold the right of a state to secede.

 

Rules? You mean like rules of war?



The only 'rules' if the collective institutions disband will be the law of the jungle.. the strongest decide. He who has the gold, makes the rules. I don't think your list will be implicitly or explicitly stated as the terms for revolution.

That said, i don't know how there could be a peaceful disbanding of the union.. Would Ut return to its dream of a theocracy? Tx back to independence? Would the original 13 colonies stick together? When the differences are ideological, more than regional or ethnic, divisions tend to be more intense, & revolution more bloody. I don't see anything good coming from another American revolution.. unless it is just a purge of corrupt leaders. But even then, with a 'french revolution' style of reorganization, the likely result would be despotism, as the foundations of Law would be torn down, & be difficult to rebuild, with the great division in the nation.

 

No, I don't think so either. The US is not Czechoslovakia and there won't be a Velvet Revolution here. Still, I see a great value in allowing people who are so intensely disaffected to go their own way.

 

It's certainly a possibility that the US breaks up, but I don't see it happening. The Brexit vote was close. Scotland and N. Ireland are opposed. It's a UK thing. The people of Great Britain have a long storied history and culture. That's what this was about, culture shock. It doesn't mean the rest of the EU or the US will dissolve. Interesting idea, but the hype will die down.

Yes, violence is still the power of choice.

 

My oh my, I completely agree! Let those who believe A.they have moral obligation to accept 3rd world pseudo-refugees, which rational and practical nations like Korea, Japan and China, to name just a few consider completely absurd and B. government can simply print their way out of every fiscal quagmire live together and happily thereafter! Let's see if by doing the same thing USSR did again, and again and again, they can achieve different results!

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That's a very triggering statement lol.

 

is that the view of Trump supporters

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if a state left, we divide the national debt by the number of states and that state takes their share of the debt

 

Exactly! Countries don't last forever, and the united states is no exception.

We have such a very distinct rift between us that it will happen. These damn liberals want things their way, and don't care how they get there. Well I say more power to them, but without me!

Self determination is one of those things that liberals just don't get on a fundamental level, just as muslims don't get. They really are a match made in heaven in many ways.

I say let them rest in peace together.

 

No, the national debt stays with the federal government., You want it? Then you can have it.

 

I can tell that you've never studied history.

We fight and we kill and we are very very very brutal. And no, you don't get to say how the wars are fought. They are fought based upon technology, the battle field, and the will of the people to fight.

There are no ground rules, dude.

 

I think we should live our lives and let others live theirs. We are in what remains the most prosperous and powerful entity that has yet existed and I think the major reason for that is that we provide ample means for any of our people to effect any political change they want to legally.

 

"legally" is a problem. The southern states tried to do that, but Lincoln wasn't having it.

This time, there is no slavery to rationalize the violence. The only rationalization possible is that the northern states need tax slaves. This is why we get this "you have to pay your share of the national debt. It's not a national debt. It is a federal government debt.

It will happen. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen. That's just the way nations are. They never last forever.

 

not hardly, you want to leave, you take your portion at the door

 

Maybe not every state being its own country. But certainly a confederacy of separate liberal and conservative countries with mutual defense would work out better in the long run. The south was wrong about slavery, but right about being a separate country culturally.

 

It's pragmatically impossible for any state to leave the United States today.

Even ignoring the fact that a "Dissolution Amendment" to the US Constitution allowing a state to leave the United States would require ratification by 3/4ths of the states it's financially impossible for a state to leave because of our national debt that must be apportioned based upon the population of the people of the state that wants to secede. I've addressed this in another thread that addresses Texit based upon Brexit of the UK from the EU.

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=462558&p=1066335853#post1066335853

To summarize that thread Texas, if it was to leave the United States, would owe the US Treasury about $1.8 trillion based upon the national debt and with only a gross state tax revenue of about $52 billion per year, all of which is currently being spent by Texas, it would arguably have to raise taxes by 1,000% just to pay off it's 9% portion (based upon population) of the US national debt within a reasonable amount of time (e.g. less than five years).

I don't believe the people of Texas can afford to pay 1000% more in state taxes just to fund this one cost of independence and there are many more costs, all of which require taxation to fund, that a state would have to address with higher taxation so the financial problems for the state only increase from there.

Logically all US payments for Social Security/Medicare to Texas would cease because Texas would no longer be a part of the United States and Texas needs to pick up this cost burden. US taxpayers aren't going to fund welfare benefits to citizens of another country.

All US defense contractors, under the law, would have to relocate their defense production out of the state and back into the United States causing a severe economic crisis for any state with significant income, like Texas, from US defense contracts.

The state, no longer protected by the US military or US Border Patrol, would have to fund it's own national defense and border enforcement and that's very expensive requiring more taxation.

All things considered it's really impossible for any state to leave the United States today. It's a delusional idea that's being proposed by very delusional people.

 

If I'm delusioned, I'm delusioned at our political state today. And I use the words "political state" specifically. Europe, is a political State. There's a political identity with being a Pole, a German, or an Irish.(ETC, all of them.) America had lost its political identity, really once we won the American Revolutionary War. From time to time, we can yell "freedom" whenever we're in a conflict, but it's a mirage. The Star-Spangled Banner feels more like screeching than an actual anthem.

I love America the Beautiful far more as a National Anthem. But even that anthem doesn't necessarily capture the "spirit" of America. Why? Because America's spirit doesn't exist. Liberal politics is not National, in fact Liberals disdain the thought. And Conservatives are politically irrelevant(by their own actions.)

The country is a political atheist, its political thoughts the rough equivalent IMO of a five year old. And that today, more than anything is what's sinking this "union". That we're tied to it via debt(as you point out) is cruelly punishing to everyone.

 

promoting hate towards people for only their political opinion is a good indicator for fascism...all the best empires in the history used this concept of silencing other voices, think hitler, stalin, north-korea...u are in good company

 

u cant say u want to split up the US and at the same time claim to be an american patriot; u may be a patriot, probably in regard to the south or the north but certainly not in regard to the United States of America
saying this im quite surprised about the amount of people that usually pretend to be very patriotic which now have revealed themselves voluntarily as opponents of the USA

 

Yes, & we should hold hands & sing kumbaya together, too. And we should put our faith in the Universal, Eternal, Functionality of the United States of America as an entity of Truth, Justice, & Reason.

But it does not work that way. Times change, & nations change. People change. America WAS once a bastion of freedom, opportunity, tolerance, & Human Equality. But progressive ideology has slowly undermined the principles that America was founded upon.. instead of critical thinking, they make decrees & mandate belief. THEIR religious view of the universe is the only acceptable one, & they attack any dissenting views. They promote elitism, & plundering the working man, undermining the American principle of Citizen Representatives, replacing them with an elite, money driven ruling class. They DO NOT 'live & let live', but agonize over every aspect of our lives, dictating what we can eat, where we live, how much money we earn, & they try to micromanage every little thing in the huddled masses' lives.

Perhaps it is a matter of perspective. I am a 12th generation American. I know the history of this country, & have family connections in almost every past event in American history. I have seen, personally, the changes from my youth until now, & they are not toward freedom & principles of America, but domination & control from a manipulating, lying, ideologically driven elite, who have hijacked all the institutions of America, & are driving us over the cliff of collectivism. It is the TREND, not the nostalgic memory, of our national direction that alarms me, as it has for decades.

So maybe we seem better than most, from other options in the world, but not for long, if this trend continues. I see death in America's future, if we do not turn from these ideological fantasies, unworkable programs & fiscal policies of the progressive left. They are driving us to ruin, & will not rest until we are destroyed.

 

I would support secession if it could be done peacefully and amicably.

Drawing the border would be interesting between conservative and liberal states.

The "north": ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ, PA, MD, DE, OH, IN, MI, IL, WI, MN, IA, WA, OR, CA, HI

The "south": VA, WV, NC, SC, GA, FL, KY, TN, AL, MS, AR, LA, OK, TX, MO, KS, NE, SD, ND, MT, ID, UT, NV, WY, CO, AZ, NM, AK

There are some that may want to be on the other side. Indiana would want to be in the conservative country, and New Mexico or Nevada may want to be included with the liberals. It's a tough call.

In international affairs, Obama would have his dream ... we would be significantly reduced in stature if we're cut in half.

The split could be a nightmare. If it was going to happen, it probably should have been done in 1860.

 

We are opponents of the federal government, not of the U.S. I am a Yankee ... born and raised in the NYC area. My family is still there. I have nothing against NY, NJ, CT, etc. I just hate Washington, DC.