What is wrong with American traditions

Yeah man, but it wasn't pretty, in fact it was often ugly, but it did get built. Mama said use what you got [now] -- so if you are a citizen you should remember what and who brung you to this dance that you got right now, and give that consideration before you throw it away for "greener" grass on the far side of the hill.

Pick a better country if you can.

 

Does everyone really believe in their hearts any serious sane person wants to go back to segregation, women having no choice to work and have children, or men being responsible for the actions of their wives?

 

Native Americans might be inclined to disagree. I think much of conservative Christianity has little to do with the Christian bible. Notably their failure to condemn materialism, adulation of the wealthy, and violence in the US. Which the bible most certain does condemn as it makes central concern for the poor.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Mathew 5:24

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Paul compared materialistic people to idolatry.

Jesus said those who did not help those in need were not his followers. When James spoke to Paul the one thing he asked, which Paul agreed with, is that he assist the poor which I think is in Galatians.

 

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When your life is full of greed and materialism, lack of concern for the poor and needy, adulation of the powerful..., accepting violence and extreme individualism, you are simply pretending to be a christian.

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

To those who have heard American conservatives, does this seem consistent with the values they stress? They are god's values.

“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Rich people who see a brother or sister in need, yet close their hearts against them, cannot claim that they love God. (1 John 3:17)

This is in acts

By all these things, I have shown you that by working in this way we must help the weak, and remember the words of the Lord Jesus that he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.'”

This is in Timothy
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

 

Materialistic, not wealthy.

It isn't the money, it's how they got it and what they do with it. I do not believe that someone doing a good job, being on time, missing few days, being good at what you do, and getting paid well for it is sinful.

If your goal is wealth, that is different. Should a man who is good at his job and gets paid well for it quit, so he isn't wealthy or should he simply tithe, visit the sick, those in prison, and offer help to those he finds robbed and beaten along the road?

When Jesus told the man to sell all he had, it wasn't to get rid of his money, it was to show the man that his top priority was not doing the will of God, but to stay wealthy at the cost of his soul.

Jesus took money in gifts from the wealthy to support his ministry. Did he rebuke them?

Agree. Wealthy and poor alike are asked to help the poor. Is that the poor only or the poor in spirit? Jesus did not make those He met who were poor, any wealthier materially. He helped those who were poor in spirit. He was concerned with saving souls, not adding to bank accounts or taking anything away from them.

 

Nothing wrong with it at all. There just happens to be a small, very small, but quite vocal crew of Marxists that like to deconstruct things. And it wouldn't matter to them if America was still a British Colony, they would be Marxist agitators then as well. What ever the dominant paradigm is they want to destroy it.

Learn to see them for what they are and laugh at them.

 

Jesus had his followers give to the poor which certain made them better off materially. He helped in both ways as did His church. There are an amazing number of verses in the bible about helping the needy, the weak, the powerless. I can't think of a single positive thing the New Testament says about the rich which amazed His followers who associated wealth with godliness - as did many later Christians for instance many Calvinist.

BTW I never said god condemned wealth per se. I said he condemned adulation of the wealthy. Read what James has to say about that.

 

I agree we should follow the American traditions that built this country. Bring back slavery, what’s wrong with that. And we should stick to the American traditions that built this country like denying women the right to vote.
There is nothing wrong with hard work and personal responsibility ..who says there isn’t? Just those who see billionaires get all the breaks.

 

Oh you oligarchs are all the same

 

Who said anything about going back to segregation??????????

 

I think that killing Native Americans and taking their land without compensation is not exactly biblically based either.

Where in the bible does it say you should lower workmen's wages as low as you can to maximize our own profit. I think you should go back and look how common that was in US history.

How exactly is Jim Crow or lynching consistent with the bible while we are at it.

 

It seems that the left sure has problem with the morals of the traditional American. Why is that.

 

If you read the old Testament, that is basically what it was ALL about.

 

No it is not. in Isaiah god tells the Israelite's to take care of the strangers in their land because they once were strangers in Egypt. God ordered the destruction of the Canaanites, that was a very special exception.

 

I'm not Calvinist. I don't remember Jesus telling them to give anyone a few Drachmas, or shekels. Although, it takes money to help others many times, but not always. It is worse to waste the talents God gave you, than to make them work to help those in need, without losing the ability to help.

Surely you can do none of those, if you are poor or give it all away?

 

Ah gee Russ, not in any frame to debate scripture, shouldn't have made an attempt.

 

He told them to help the poor economically. How much is not cited. I am not sure of the point you are making. The verse you cited, which I failed to find is what makes it clear that if you don't help those in need you are not a follower of Jesus. They are cursed for not doing that.

This is a small portion of the verses about helping the poor

19:17 ESV / 1,380 helpful votes
Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed.

Proverbs 22:9 ESV / 856 helpful votes
Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

Acts 20:35 ESV / 653 helpful votes
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Proverbs 14:31 ESV / 618 helpful votes
Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Matthew 5:42 ESV / 601 helpful votes
Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Proverbs 28:27 ESV / 592 helpful votes
Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Deuteronomy 15:11 ESV / 524 helpful votes
For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Luke 14:12-14 ESV / 508 helpful votes
He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”

Galatians 2:10 ESV / 495 helpful votes
Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Isaiah 58:10 ESV / 493 helpful votes
If you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.

James 1:27 ESV / 471 helpful votes
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Luke 12:33-34 ESV / 433 helpful votes
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Proverbs 14:21 ESV / 412 helpful votes
Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner, but blessed is he who is generous to the poor.

Proverbs 21:13 ESV / 387 helpful votes
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered.

Luke 3:11 ESV / 365 helpful votes
And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”

Deuteronomy 15:7-11 ESV / 337 helpful votes
“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the Lord against you, and you be guilty of sin. You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake. For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Matthew 19:21 ESV / 331 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 29:7 ESV / 331 helpful votes
A righteous man knows the rights of the poor; a wicked man does not understand such knowledge.

1 John 3:17 ESV / 330 helpful votes
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Luke 6:38 ESV / 282 helpful votes
Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Leviticus 19:9-10 ESV / 262 helpful votes
“When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.

Luke 12:33 ESV / 260 helpful votes
Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

Isaiah 58:6-7 ESV / 250 helpful votes
“Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Psalm 140:12 ESV / 246 helpful votes
I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and will execute justice for the needy.

Leviticus 25:35 ESV / 242 helpful votes
“If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you.

Isaiah 25:4 ESV / 239 helpful votes
For you have been a stronghold to the poor, a stronghold to the needy in his distress, a shelter from the storm and a shade from the heat; for the breath of the ruthless is like a storm against a wall,

Jeremiah 22:16 ESV / 236 helpful votes
He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well. Is not this to know me? declares the Lord.

Isaiah 1:17 ESV / 233 helpful votes
Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

Isaiah 41:17 ESV / 231 helpful votes
When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue is parched with thirst, I the Lord will answer them; I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8 ESV / 231 helpful votes
“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be.

Proverbs 22:22-23 ESV / 230 helpful votes
Do not rob the poor, because he is poor, or crush the afflicted at the gate, for the Lord will plead their cause and rob of life those who rob them.

2 Corinthians 8:9 ESV / 229 helpful votes
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.

Matthew 6:1-4 ESV / 225 helpful votes
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Matthew 25:34-46 ESV / 224 helpful votes
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? ...

Ezekiel 16:49 ESV / 218 helpful votes
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

Proverbs 31:8-9 ESV / 216 helpful votes
Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute. Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Leviticus 19:15 ESV / 207 helpful votes
“You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.

Psalm 12:5 ESV / 206 helpful votes
“Because the poor are plundered, because the needy groan, I will now arise,” says the Lord; “I will place him in the safety for which he longs.”

Isaiah 61:1 ESV / 185 helpful votes
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Proverbs 17:5 ESV / 181 helpful votes
Whoever mocks the poor insults his Maker; he who is glad at calamity will not go unpunished.

1 John 3:17-18 ESV / 179 helpful votes
But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Deuteronomy 15:7 ESV / 177 helpful votes
“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother,

Luke 6:20-21 ESV / 175 helpful votes
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. “Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you shall be satisfied. “Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.

Ezekiel 22:29 ESV / 174 helpful votes
The people of the land have practiced extortion and committed robbery. They have oppressed the poor and needy, and have extorted from the sojourner without justice.

 

How can it be bad to debate scripture

 

Why feel guilty? I wasn't talking about you. I was making a statement against the idea that sometimes folks like to bring up, that traditional men want to enslave women, beat them and keep them pregnant, and force them to marry a man to be able to survive, never allowing her to get a divorce or have anything more than a servant's or slave's life.

Now, I do embellish a bit with that, but I'm sure anyone can find posts that at least fall along similar lines, if not exactly or with that intensity.

 

Which of those can you do if you are poor? Which of those says to empty your purse and never refill it to help others? I never said he didn't tell them to help the poor economically.

Who do you think might be able to help the poor economically? The poor?

 

He cited the case of the woman who gave the smallest coin, praising her even though it was very small compared to larger contributions. Because she literally gave all she had. She not only was generous she did so trusting that god would take care of her. It is very difficult for me to do that when I feel I don't have enough. I understand that is difficult and I don't think the Lord means people generally to go into great need to help the poor based on what Paul says in Corinthians. But I could be wrong.

There are ways to help those who are poor when you have little money. I work at a shelter serving meals (but I have a car and am not poor). You can pray for them as well.

 

Because traditional American morals created atrocities.

 

The woman who gave all she had gave from her heart, trusting in God to take care of her. The rich man gave because it was expected and there was no amount specified. He did not give from the heart. Doesn't mean he had to give all he had. Means he didn't take any of it seriously, but worshipped because it was expected.

If he gave all he had, instead of giving from his heart while making sure he didn't bankrupt himself, he could give more than once and thereby help more. I cannot imagine that giving all away and then having to rely on the charity of others to pay loans is what Jesus expected. It was not about the amount. It was about where their loyalty was, and their heart. The woman cared deeply for those she was helping. If she kept what she had, it would do little to help her situation change.