Atheists Who Celebrate All The Good That God Causes.

This is not an explanation, this is just a repetition. If this was enough to argue your point, I wouldn't have to ask for an explanation.

Tell me where would the money come from. Galileo found that the earth was rotating around the sun, did he become rich, or did he get imprisoned for life by vested interests? I'm not suggesting that the church would imprison anyone with new ideas, but I do suggest that people are pretty set in their ways, even against good evidence.

 

Ok, so you "expect" these atheists to take into account what you feel strongly about? I reckon, the atheists in question feel as weakly about your point 14 as you do about kelp. As such, them leaving out point 14 is no less consistent than leaving out any statements about kelp.

 

It matters what they think if you want to blame them for being inconsistent, or bet that they want to be consistent in the way that you suggest. If they are thinking about point 12 and onwards into the argument of evil, how is it inconsistent to not bring up 14?

 

Well, no, you ask them to celebrate it.

 

Tell me, what have I said about it?

There is a point in my example that applies also to your post.

 

That ship has already sailed.
Its now way out of sight.
Gone.
As in "Gone With The Wind."
That ship is 10,000 nautical miles from here,
never to be seen seriously again.

We are talking about different subjects.

Let it forever remain a secret.
Deut. 29:29
But even if not a secret --- that boat is now sunk. Its at the
bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Maybe they will come to "see fit" and then maybe they
will have a fit.
If they do not "see fit" I will ask then to "see fit."
If they say Yes, then I will see them state 14
If they say No, then I will NOT see them state 14
But I can always try again. I can say to them, "Listen
are you sure you will not choose to 'see fit' to state 14"?
If they say No, then I can try again. "Listen , are you
absolutely certain-sure that you will not choose to 'see fit'
to state 14"?
It'll be either Yes or No or Maybe. They can always say
"Maybe I will, let me think on it."
Also this: Your 6 could have changed their minds by now,
so you no longer can know for certain that you have 6
on your side.
Logic demands that you admit the truth of what I just bolded red.
Humans are characteristically very fickle creatures.
You do not KNOW that you NOW have 6 on your side.
It could now be down to just 2.
Four {4} of them could have changed their minds.
Are all 6 could have changed their minds.
And you can NOW be down to 0
You don't KNOW that is not the truth.
You do not KNOW that Stephen Fry has not changed his mind.
If "your 6" has not changed their minds today --- you have no
possible way to know that they will not change their minds
next week --- or very soon.

Thanks but that ship has long ago sailed out of the
harbor and is now in Hong Kong.
"I'm on nobody's side, because nobody is on my side."__Treebeard
In The Lord Of The Rings.
My view is that it does not matter if your have 6 on your side
of 500,000 on your side. I no longer take this seriously, but
you can continue to post about it if you want to.
I stand by my Opening Post and I stand on my 1 -14
Ans so it shall ever be.

{1} My 13 is magnificent. As is my 14.
{2} {2} is a secret.
{3} Your 6 could be "pulling your leg."
{4} That ship is gone goodbye forever.
{5} If they mention 6 -12 then I am going to ask them
to observe 13 and include 14. There is not anything that
you can say, think, or do, that is going to change that.
{6} But don't give up trying.
{7} Your 6 could have changed their minds by now,
so you no longer can know for certain that you have 6
on your side.
If they have not changed their minds now, they might change their
minds tomorrow.
Also its possible that "your 6" do not correctly understand my
Opening Post. Who would be The Judge of that -- if they do, or do not
correctly understand my Opening Post? I need to have solid answers
on this question. I want to know who The Judge of this is? What is
his/her name. And where are they located? Then there is the very important
issue about if The Judge is really qualified to be The Judge of this?
Judges do get things totally wrong at times -- so this has got to be
carefully considered.
If it is YOU that claims "your 6" does in fact correctly understand my
Opening Post, then I must have solid Empirical evidence that you
are qualified to judge if they do, or do not, correctly understand my
Opening Post. Otherwise I will not be able to accept your conclusions
on this very important point.

I have been keeping it a secret.
I just didn't want to share it with you.
But now the time is right.
And I do.
Want to.
So?
So here it is:
"I got tired of hearing ONLY their 6 -12 and so I wrote my
Opening Post to encourage them to also observe my 13 and
state my 14. I only asked them to do that. I did not make any
demands. They can say yes or no. Some said yes and some
said no. Then I moved on to something else. Its not a big deal,
My Opening Post is not a Big Deal. If some cat out there does
not want to observe my 13 and state my 14 --- then that's okay
cool with me."

Yes. And I shall continue to talk about hospitals and not about
kelp --- except maybe now and then. See below.
Speaking to the atheists, JAG requests this:
"Hello atheists, listen if you bring up 6-12, would you also
observe 13 and then state 14? If you would do that for me,
I would certainly appreciate it. Thank you. And I am NOT asking
you to mention kelp. -- but if you want to mention kelp along
with 14, that'd be cool too, and thanks again."

I will ask them, when I meet them if they will make a decision and
choose to make it "relevant" just because they want to make me happy.
You know as in "one human being to another --happy."
_________________

I will continue to try and compose interesting posts for your consideration.

JAG

``

 

And I still do.
There are different levels of celebration.
10 - The very highest level of celebration {here they jump up and down in total excitement and yell out that they will observe my 13 and state my 14}
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1 - The very lowest level of celebration {here all they do is just barely boringly whisper that they will observe my 13 and state my 14}

All I ask of them is 1 -- the very lowest level of celebration.
And remember that this is merely me asking as in "Will you please observe my 13 and state my 14"?

JAG


`

 

I don't need to use the word expect in order to satisfy my goal.
I can and do use the words ask and request.
It does not matter any at all {000} how atheists feel about my request.
It does not matter how I feel about kelp.
It does not matter how atheists feel about kelp.
If I decide that I so desire I can and will request atheists that mention
6 -12 to also embrace 13 and state 14 AND THEN also start talking
about KELP and about cheeseburgers.
What I just wrote is true and needs to be re-stated and bolded red.
If I decide that I so desire I can and will request atheists that mention
6 -12 to also embrace 13 and state 14 AND THEN also start talking
about KELP and about cheeseburgers.
They can say Yes or No or Maybe.
I have a Human Right to make requests in print in my own Opening Post,
they call it Freedom Of Speech.
____________
I say it is logical.
You say is is illogical.
Trump says Hillary is a crook.
Hillary says Trump is a crook.
They both "give their reasons" in support of their contradictory positions.
The GOP says the Donks are wrong.
The Donks say the GOP is wrong.
They all "give their reasons" in support of their contradictory positions.
Etc etc
_____________________________

If I choose to believe that atheists are inconsistent because they mention
6 -12 and then refuse to embrace 13 and then state 14, then I shall continue
to believe that they are inconsistent and I shall continue to repeat my reasons
which are in my Opening Post and in my 1 -14 with explanatory footnotes.
There is no , , , ,
International Authority that has the Power and the Authority to proclaim that
JAG's reasons as stated in his Opening Post, are incorrect or illogical.
Your view is that my Opening Post fails.
My view is that you are incorrect.
My view is that my Opening Post succeeds.
________

There is no International Authority On What Is, Or Is Not, Logical.
Philosophical disagreements cannot be settled with Majority Vote.
All you have is your personal understanding of what YOU claim
is logical or illogical with regard to my Opening Post.
We disagree and we have both given our reasons.

JAG

Scot me up Beamy.


``.

 

The Subject is:
{1} You can not demonstrate with Empirical evidence that God does not exist.

"I wouldn't have to ask for an explanation."___Swensson
That does not logically follow. Why not? Because my
repeated clarification and explanations could be crystal
clear -- and you just do not yet comprehend my explanations.
It could be that your understanding will come tomorrow for you
on this issue .So? So it does not logically follow that just
because you do not NOW understand my explanations
that therefore my explanations were unclear or were in any
way insufficient.
_______________

Let me re-explain again and answer your questions at the bottom of this
post.

You Said:
"I am 'interested' in your points 2 through 7, but I do not believe they are true"___Swensson

JAG Wrote:
I do not see how I can make it any clearer than this below:

If you or atheists could successfully accomplish {1} , , , then {2} -- {8} would be yours to enjoy.
And that should be obvious --- crystal clear and absolute certain.

{1} You can not demonstrate with Empirical evidence that God does not exist.
{2} If you could do that, you'd be a $ millionaire in just a few weeks.
{3} You would also win many secular awards and prizes.
{4} You would be on national television prime time constantly.
{5} You would be invited to be a guest on all the cable news channels.
(6) You would become the most famous man in all of human history.
(7} You would be the man that had, at last, eliminated Theism off the planet.
{8} Just think. You can eliminate:
Christianity
Islam
Judaism , , ,
, , ,off the planet once and for all , , ,
, , ,and all you have to do is just produce your evidence that there is no God.

Does it make you uncomfortable to know that {1) through {8} is the truth?

Millions of dollars and world fame awaits the person that can prove there
is no God and vanish , , ,
Christianity
Islam
Judaism , , ,
, , ,off the planet once and for all.

But you and the atheists don't really want the $ millions of dollars and world fame.
Yeah right!

_________


My view that up there is an clear as can be -- to anybody that wants
to understand what It says.

It is factually true ---Swensson, if you accomplish 1 , , , then 2 - 8 would be
yours to enjoy.

----------

Swensson writes his book:
"How I Proved With Empirical Evidence That There Is No God"
by Swensson

The money would come from:

■ book deals -- major publishing companies would pay you $$ tens of millions for the publishing rights for your
book explaining how you demonstrated with Empirical evidence that there is no God. You'd have sales
way way over one billion copies --- actually more like 2 or 3 billion copies. If there are 7.5 billion people
on the planet, then its reasonable to believe that at least 2 billion of them would buy and read your
book where you demonstrated with Empirical evidences that there is no God. , , , $$$$ galore for you.

■ guest appearances on prime time television shows $$ millions of dollars for you

■ the college and university speech industry -- you'd be invited to give speeches all over the world
The Clintons, Bill and Hillary, as I recall, were getting $300,000 for one speech delivered at universities $$$$

■ Your name Swensson would become a franchise. There would be Swensson coffee cups, Swensson
Tee-Shirts and the Swensson brand would be worth untold $$$ millions of dollars

■ movies and documentaries would be made based on your book and more $$$ millions of dollars for you

■ world fame --- it is projected that by 2050 there will be 5.7 billion Theists in the world.
You Swensson, would be the man that had eliminated and vanished Theism off the planet once and for all.
The money would pour into your coffers. Any man known by name to virtually every human on the
planet as the man that had, once and for all, vanished God off of Planet Earth would become wealthy $$$$$$.
Mansions, automobiles galore, world travel, world fame, praise, awards, recognition, etc would lal be yours.

So?

So if you or atheists could successfully accomplish {1} , , , then {2} -- {8} would be yours to enjoy.
And that should be obvious --- crystal clear and absolute certain.

{1} You can not demonstrate with Empirical evidence that God does not exist.
{2} If you could do that, you'd be a $ millionaire in just a few weeks.
{3} You would also win many secular awards and prizes.
{4} You would be on national television prime time constantly.
{5} You would be invited to be a guest on all the cable news channels.
(6) You would become the most famous man in all of human history.
(7} You would be the man that had, at last, eliminated Theism off the planet.
{8} Just think. You can eliminate:
Christianity
Islam
Judaism , , ,
, , ,off the planet once and for all , , ,
, , ,and all you have to do is just produce your evidence that there is no God.

____________

I do not think 2 - 8 would be yours to enjoy if you were successful in 1
as applied to:
■ Bigfoot
■ The Easter Bunny
■ Fairies
■ The Loch Ness Monster
■ Odin
■ Zeus
■ Etc

JAG

Scot me up Beamy.

``

 

Quote by JAG "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Look! God's dwelling
place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be
his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 'He will
wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning
or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
___Revelation 21:3-4

a} God will dwell with them
b} humans will be His people
c} God will wipe every tear from their eyes
d} there will be no more Death
e} no more mourning
f} no more crying
g} no more pain
h} the Old Order of things has passed away.

This quote is from Ezekiel and refers specifically to Israel and Judah. Much of the Book of Revelations is taken from the OT, which is for the Jews.John simply copied many OT images and added Jesus. On the other hand the Essenes did the same as John, only earlier, and the added mother earth instead of Jesus. In modern terms it's called plagiarism.

 

{1} I believe in keeping it simple.
{2} I believe Christianity is a Faith.
{3} I believe Christianity is true.
{4} Christianity is NOT an intellectualized philosophical system built on
Empiricism and Rationalism --- rather it is built upon Faith.
{5} So? So I look at the 66 books of the Protestant canon as being assembled
by the Providence of the Sovereign God. They are what God wanted us to have.
{6} So I disregard how the books were assembled because it does not matter
since I believe 1,2,3 4, 5 and 7
{7} I believe the finished product is all that matters and not how the finished
product was assembled or what sources were used to finish them.
{8} You will probably say that my 6 and 7 are irrational and illogical.
{9} But you will ALSO probably say that my 2 and 3 are ALSO irrational and illogical.
(10} So? So its not unusual for non-believers to believe that Faith is irrational and illogical.
{11} Or that Christianity is irrational and illogical.

JAG

 

Excellent concept. Isn't there some other grand
and important ideas we can discuss besides
this 14 thingy? Beat to death, it has been.
What are the top 3 subjects that you think about
during your typical day? If you can't think of 3, then
go for the top 2. , , or just 1
1.
2.
______________

, , ,lol , , , this beats the 14 thingy , , ,

The Violinist Thought Experiment:

"You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but, in three months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

Some say that one can now permissibly unplug themself from the violinist even though this will cause his death: this is due to limits on the right to life, which does not include the right to use another person's body, and so by unplugging the violinist, one does not violate his right to life but merely deprive him of something—the use of someone else's body—to which he has no right. "If you do allow him to go on using your kidneys, this is a kindness on your part, and not something he can claim from you as his due."___Wiki {modified by JAG}

``

 

So you ignore the obvious errors, modern knowledge that denies the words of the Bible. You accept that Christianity is a furtherance of Judaism by misreprenting the Tanakh teachings, but yet deny that Islam is a faith that also misrepresented the Tanakh. I suppose its good to have a faith that blithely goes on ignoring actual facts.

 

Miscellaneous Points:
■ I said you would say something like that up there -- see my 9, 10,and 11 below.
■ You can put your favorite "spin" on it --I knew you would.
■ Its a good bet that you are unfriendly to Christianity and to Theism.
■ Its also a good bet that you will deny that you are.
■ "I'm just after the "actual facts", you are likely to say.
■ Its a good bet that you will claim to "have logic on your side." Most do, don't they?
■ Your approach is not to "live and let live" --- but rather to find fault and be critical.
■ What harm has Christianity ever done to you personally?
■ Why do you care what I believe?
■ I never "come looking for you" to push Christianity upon you -- or anybody else.
■ The entire world is mostly a "war of all against all" --- you ever get tired of that?
■ Or do you like it?
■ And desire to contribute to the conflict, the hostility and the wars?
■ Think of all my questions as "food for thought."
■ It is reasonable for a man of Faith to hold my 1,2,3,4,5,6, and 7 below.
■ But you desire to proclaim that to be illogical and irrational.
■ What do you personally gain from doing this?
■ You must get something from it, otherwise you would not do it.
■ My view of "actual facts" is different than your view of "actual facts."
■ My 5, 6 and 7 below are actual facts in my world.
■ My 2 and 4 below is me being honest with you.
■ My 2 and 4 below is me being as up-front and as honest with you as I know how to be.
■ But you want more.
■ What would you like to see me do? Renounce Christianity?
■ What are your goals here? To get me to agree with your "actual facts"?
■ To get me to agree with you that the Book of Revelation is a product of plagiarism?
_____________

JAG Previously Wrote:
{1} I believe in keeping it simple.
{2} I believe Christianity is a Faith.
{3} I believe Christianity is true.
{4} Christianity is NOT an intellectualized philosophical system built on
Empiricism and Rationalism --- rather it is built upon Faith.
{5} So? So I look at the 66 books of the Protestant canon as being assembled
by the Providence of the Sovereign God. They are what God wanted us to have.
{6} So I disregard how the books were assembled because it does not matter
since I believe 1,2,3 4, 5 and 7
{7} I believe the finished product is all that matters and not how the finished
product was assembled or what sources were used to finish them.
{8} You will probably say that my 6 and 7 are irrational and illogical.
{9} But you will ALSO probably say that my 2 and 3 are ALSO irrational and illogical.
(10} So? So its not unusual for non-believers to believe that Faith is irrational and illogical.
{11} Or that Christianity is irrational and illogical.

_____________

Here is what you could have said to me:
JAG, I'm not personally a Christian or a person of Faith, but I do recognize that
Christianity has many good elements within it, for example "love your neighbor
as you love yourself" and "treat other people the way you would want to be treated"
and so I wish you the very best in your faith and practice of Christianity.

But instead of that, here is your message to me:
"So you ignore the obvious errors, modern knowledge that
denies the words of the Bible. You accept that Christianity is
a furtherance of Judaism by misreprenting the Tanakh
teachings, but yet deny that Islam is a faith that also
misrepresented the Tanakh. I suppose its good to
have a faith that blithely goes on ignoring actual facts"___Trevorw
And , ,
PS
The Book of Revelation is a product of "plagiarism."
_____________

■ Can you name one thing you like about Christianity?
■ Can you name one thing you like about the New Testament?
■ Can you name one thing you like about the Old Testament?
■ Have you read enough of my posts to have an opinion on them?
If so can you name one thing you like about my posts?
■ Did you read my Opening Post? If so do you agree or disagree?

JAG

 

You don't need Chrstianity to love your neighbour as yourself. There are many people who do just that without any religion.
Many of Christianity's teaching can be found on other religions and societies. And Christianity isn't always known for its love and charity.
The NT. is interesting if you take it with the understanding of the times, Jewish and Roman Law, Jewish customs. The Book of Acts is also interesting for the information gleaned from the apostles and Paul's travels. How Herod the Great influenced it and his 3 sons and 1 daughter influenced the life of the Jewish preacher. And how his grandson and great grandson influenced the early church and the life of Paul. Studying Acts and its background explains many events recorded. I spent 12 months on this particular book and have studied other books and the lives - as recorded in the Bible - of individuals.
The OT is interesting when comparing Genesis with the earlier myths and fables which the Jews adapted for their own purposes. Even books like Job have their basis in earlier Babylonian (Ludlul-Bel-Nimeqi) and even earlier Sumerian writings (Man and his God) Comparing it with known proven. History and modern archaeological knowledge shows how unreliable its veracity is.
I've read many of you posts but cannot understand your inability to see that most of it is nonsense.
I've read the subject of this thread and it is just your assumption. You cannot prove there is a god, therefore why should any athiest/agnostic accept they are recipients of any good from a non-existent God. Therefore I reject your statement.

I attended my first Sunday School at the age of 4 - around 1943 - became a Baptised Christian at the age of 14. Continued in the faith, studied the Bible, preached the Gospel, led Bible Studies and a small Church. Like many preachers, Priests and Ministers I lost my faith when I studied the Real Bible. The background on which your Bible is written gives a completely different meaning to what you read. You either do not know the real background to the Bible, or you wish to remain faithful to a book which is in many respects an historical novel.

Good Luck.

 

Well that was honest.
Thanks for the good luck wishes.
Speaking of honest, I tell you the truth:
"You don't need Christianity to love your neighbor as yourself. There are many people who do just that without any religion."___Trevorw
I said to myself when I typed in my "love your neighbor as yourself" thingy, that Trevorw is going to write back and tell you that
You don't need Christianity to love your neighbor as yourself. There are many people who do just that without any religion.
That is what unbelievers ALWAYS write back and say when Christendom's Golden Rule is presented. Its near to 100% predictable.
_________

Sounds like you're coming up on about age 80.
That means if you live to be say 90, you have about 120 months left
before you find out for sure if John 3:16 is true or false.
{1} believe and get Eternal Life
{2} refuse to believe and perish

___________


"I lost my faith" ___Trevorw
You can get it back. Its never to late.
Seriously.
Its never to late.

"The background on which your Bible is written gives a completely different meaning to what you read."__Trevorw
The Enemy of your soul whispered that in your ear and you fell for it.


"You either do not know the real background to the Bible, or you wish to remain faithful to a book which is in many respects an historical novel.:___Trevorw
I do not know the background as presented by people YOU read behind. Well I do to some extent. I just don't believe it.
Read people like Bart Ehrman and other anti-Christian Liberal "scholars" and you will reach the conclusions you did reach.
Read people like orthodox Bible believing Christian scholars and you reach opposite conclusions.
The Enemy of your soul is delighted and satisfied with your conclusions.
Amazing that you never stopped and seriously considered that there was a Mastermind behind your "education" --- just cause you
don't believe in Revelation 12:7-9 ---does not mean it isn't true.

_______________

"I've read the subject of this thread and it is just your assumption. You cannot prove there is a god,
therefore why should any athiest/agnostic accept they are recipients of any good from a non-existent
God. Therefore I reject your statement"___Trevorw
If you believe that, you have no remote idea what my Opening Post is actually about and have never
read or understood my many follow-up posts in this thread. Every once in awhile an atheist will
pop in here and announce to me that "atheists do not believe in God" as if they think I do not already know that.
That is what you, de facto, just did.

See if you can find anything illogical in this below:

JAG Writes About What Some Atheists Say:
{1) I am an atheist.
{2} i don't believe in God.
{3} But He may exist.
{4} I can't prove He does.
{5} I can't prove He doesn't.
{6} The Bible says He is Omnipotent.
{7} That means He is all powerful.
{8} He could have created a different world.
{9} But He did not do that.
{10} He created the world we now have.
{11} That means He is responsible for all that exists.
{12} Therefore God is responsible for bone cancer in children.
{13} I want to be consistent with this principle. {That is, the principle in # 11 }
{14} Therefore God is also responsible for Hospitals and the Red Cross

Many atheists want it both ways.
They want to say that the "God-That-Does-Not-Exist causes
or is ultimately responsible for the evil in the world. They say
this in threads all the time. They base this on {6} through {12} up
there. Atheists do not believe there is a God, but they postulate
that God does exist for the sake of argument and then they say
He would be evil because of 6 - 12
So? So if {6} through {12} are not true, then they ought to stop
claiming that the God-That-Does-Not-Exist is ultimately responsible
for the evil in the world.
And if {6} through {12} is true, then God is also responsible for causing
the good in the world, Hospitals, Warm Beaches, the Red Cross, etc
and we're back to {13} and {14} being true.

___________

So you see Trevorw, you were completely wrong about my Opening Post and
about what you were so sure it was saying.
Suppose you are also wrong about Christianity?
What then?

`

 

Hi JAG,

You invited me to that other thread and then totally ignored what I wrote to you there. But I will attempt to address you here again.

Yes. Quite predictable. So? Its also true. You dont need Christianity to love your neighbor. Other religions urge the same, and so does human empathy. Nothing special about Christianity in this regard.

I expected better from you than the empty turn or burn rhetoric, especially when in the same post you write this:

And then this:

DO you understand that we dont believe your God exists? Do you qccept

Many atheists want it both ways.
They want to say that the "God-That-Does-Not-Exist causes
or is ultimately responsible for the evil in the world. They say
this in threads all the time. They base this on {6} through {12} up
there. Atheists do not believe there is a God, but they postulate
that God does exist for the sake of argument and then they say
He would be evil because of 6 - 12
So? So if {6} through {12} are not true, then they ought to stop
claiming that the God-That-Does-Not-Exist is ultimately responsible
for the evil in the world.
And if {6} through {12} is true, then God is also responsible for causing
the good in the world, Hospitals, Warm Beaches, the Red Cross, etc
and we're back to {13} and {14} being true.

___________

So you see Trevorw, you were completely wrong about my Opening Post and
about what you were so sure it was saying.
Suppose you are also wrong about Christianity?
What then?

`[/QUOTE]

 

Hi JAG,

You invited me to that other thread and then totally ignored what I wrote to you there. But I will attempt to address you here again.

Yes. Quite predictable. So? Its also true. You dont need Christianity to love your neighbor. Other religions urge the same, and so does human empathy. Nothing special about Christianity in this regard.

I expected better from you than the empty turn or burn rhetoric, especially when in the same post you write this:

And then this:

DO you understand that we dont believe your God exists? Do you accept and acknowledge that? Because if you do, then the first bit I quoted and the final bit I quoted are impotent and somewhat incoherent. They are only sensible if one already belives.

And the flaw in your numbered logic is that 7 doesnt follow from 6 if the Bible is fiction.

And you started this thread asking atheists to acknowledge that "God is responsible" for the good that exists as well as the bad. The answer to that is that he isnt actually responsible for either because he doesnt exist. But as a character in a story he is responsible for all. And as a character he is a very good demonstration of the contradictions and inconsistenct, authoritarianism and confusion of obedience for morality that can be expected of ancient mythology.

No, they really don't. Thats you misunderstanding them.

One thing your Bible doesnt teach you but a Spiderman comic would: With great power comes great responsibility. An all powerful being must be held to a much higher standard. If one created the world and all the bad in it (including carnivores and parasites that must kill to live) then that being should be held responsible and we can judge him as malevolent, regardless of any good he also does.

Your Bible stories depict a God who demands obedience but who fails to earn it. Your bible pushes that might makes right and substitutes obedience to power for morality. That is why it is dangerous, and yes, evil.

 

My apologies for the double post above.

I am finding this board's system infuriating. I type a message and hit post in error, then attempt to correct it and it says time has expired. It also seems to screw with some weird autocorrect thing, with words disappearing etc. Or maybe thats on my end.

Anyway, I will keep reading you fine folks but dont think i will post often.

 

Back to the OP, why would any atheist "celebrate" the good that a literary character causes in a fictional story? Should they also celebrate Anakin Skywalker winning that pod race before he became Darth Vader?

 

You are the one in denial of the teachings of Christ - along with logic and reason - because the enemy of your soul whispered into your ear and you fell for it. Now you are trying to project your issues onto others once again.

Question - when the great deceiver shows up - do you think he will be sporting red horns and a tail or will he look like "Pastor John" - or the Church leader who deceived you ?

 

I haven't needed to read any books by any other religious/atheistic author to form my opinions. I've studied ancient Mesopotamian History, culture, religions and archaeology. The Bible is simply a good historical novel which contains some wisdom along with its adaptation of ancient myths. It certainly has some proven history. but equally some exaggerated stories. The Bible supposedly gives us generations back to Adam. But we know now there were civilisations going back much farther than that. 10000 - 15000 years, probably more.
A study of religions clearly shows that Judaism and Christianity originate in earlier beliefs. The Jews adopted Jahweh as their god. The slightly earlier Ugarit Pantheon is led by El - who is the main god of many beliefs of the time - and his sons. One is Jahweh, to whom is given the task of 'looking after' Israel. Ugarit writings are sometimes interwoven with Biblical writings, especially the Psalms. In the divided Kingdom, Israel, the northern kingdom worshipped El at Shiloh. The southern Kingdom of Judah worshipped Yahweh in Jerusalem. When the Northern Kingdom virtually disappeared and the later when the Southern Kingdom was taken into Babylon the Jews followed the example of the Babylonians who had accept monotheism. They transferred all El's attributes to Jahweh and under Ezekiel became monotheistic and ruled by the Priesthood. So Jesus, if you believe he was divine and Jahweh's Son was El's grandson. Some of Judaism is traceable to Egyptian influence when Egypt ruled Palestine. Rituals, clothing and even an adaptation of the Egyptian 'Ark' is seen in the Ark of the Covenant.

I've read much of your discussion with Swennson. You assume too much.

The Bible shows me that if there is a God he would be nothing like that described in the Bible. Is there an afterlife? Who knows? The Buddhists believe that the bodies energy becomes part of the Universal energy. Energy never dies - just transforms. Perhaps it transforms into a spirit? We'll know one day - or not.

 

You did not read my invitation post carefully. I clearly said in that post
that we might not have a discussion. If you go back and carefully read
what I wrote in the invitation post, you will see that I said clearly that
we might not have a discussion.
I have decided not to discuss anything with you. I have been on the
web a long time and I am totally 100% familiar with what you have in
mind by way of what you call "discussion" --- you are in the Religion
department of the forum to harshly attack the Bible, the God of the
Bible, and Christianity and paint them as dangerous and evil. In order
to do this you must have a "sounding board" that you can "play off of"
in order to get your message out there. I will not be your "sounding board."

In order to write interesting posts one must be interested in the subject , , ,
But I have no personal interest in participating in your attacks against
the Bible, the God of the Bible, and against Christianity, and I have zero
desire to spend the time necessary composing posts in order to participate
in your attacks against the Bible, the God of the Bible, and against Christianity.

The following pretty much sums up your message:
"Your Bible stories depict a God who demands obedience but who fails to earn it.
Your bible pushes that might makes right and substitutes obedience to power for
morality. That is why it is dangerous, and yes, evil." __Jolly Penquin



``

 

"I've read much of your discussion with Swennson. You assume too much."___Trevorw
Of course you are totally unbiased. Oh yes, totally unbiased.
Of course, you are totally free of presuppositions. Oh yes. totally free of them.
Of course, you are not really on Swennson's ideological side. Oh no, of course you're not.
Of course you have no prejudices against Biblical based Christianity. Oh no, of course you don't.
Of course, you are on the side of truth. Oh yes on the side of truth.
Of course you are an intellectually disinterested seeker of truth. Oh yes totally disinterested.
Of course your "You assume to much" is the product of pure unbiased logic.

Of course, the fact that you are on record here as being against Biblical based Christianity
does not even slightly influence your conclusions. Oh no, not any at all.

So? So when you tell me "You assume to much" I can put total confidence in the fact
that you are a totally unbiased and unprejudiced disinterested seeker of truth that will
always follow the logic where ever it goes.

Yeah right!

I say to anybody who believes that up there: I own a large bridge
in Brooklyn and I will sell it to you, for whatever you got in your
pocket right now.

JAG


``