The crisis in education- how about this?

Even Biden has topped his own level of dysfunction, telling teachers that kids in a classroom are no longer their parents children- but belong to the teachers.

When YOU pay the bills- YOU get to control what you are paying for.
Common sense, fundamental truth of economics. Parents pay the bills; citizens pay the bills for public education. We ARE NOT getting our money's worth. .

SO... A just resolution to conflict, IF you don't get what you are paying for- you don't pay.
This has been upheld in courts since day 1 as an economic standard. We need- to apply that to taxation for education, and public schools.

If some want schools to teach BS- and that includes the transgender, the CRT the !619 versions of reality, fine. However- parents must consent to having their children exposed to this. Written, informed consent. The amount of public money to teach such things will be limited to the money coming from parents who approve it.

IF parents wish to reject the levels of irresponsibility and departure from the basics of education overall in public schools- they can choose either home-schooling or private schools, and not being customers of the education system- should not pay any taxes for schools, ever. The people who do not have children or children in schools but are of course being taxed anyway, should also be able to dictate the use of their taxation for education, and direct that such revenue go to subsidize home-school or qualified sources of private education, without strings attached- other than such education produce children with equal of better scores that that of public schools.

The customer is always right, or has the right to go elsewhere- and taxpayers ARE the customers. If you don't satisfy the customer- you SHOULD lose the customer.
Education of children is a critical and fundamental investment in the future, all of us have a vested interest in the quality of that job- and the students in the American public schools, compared to other developed nations- come in about 25th down the list. Parents and our children are entitled to a lot better than that. When you can't get job one done as a teacher, you have no business teaching political BS while fundamental and critical skills are not being successfully taught.

 

I genuinely have no clue why you, or anyone would think this applies to only public schools. Once a kid is in a classroom, signed up for classes, a parent has lost control over what their children are taught. They might be able to vote on things but the lesson plan itself? Controlled by the school. Do you honestly want every teacher to submit a lesson plan that must be voted on every single week “to control what’s being taught in the classroom”? That’s just dumb and impractical. If anything, sending them to private schools takes more choice and power away from parents. Because those are private institutions. They’re not accountable to parents the same way that public schools are.

I feel like most of this “debate” is explaining the basic ideas behind education. Or at worst, they reflect a growing dissatisfaction with public leaders in general. And because people can’t complain directly to the president, they just complain to teachers.

 

Well, for starters, the United States Department of Education does not teach any kids whatsoever. Second, what Biden was stating is that when the children are in the classroom, the teacher is responsible for those children. This is what Biden said, "Today, there are too many politicians trying to score political points, trying to ban books — even math books,” he said. “I mean, did you even think — even you younger teachers — did you ever think, that you’d be worried about book burnings and banning books, all because it doesn’t fit somebody’s political agenda? American teachers have dedicated their lives to teaching our children and lifting them up. We got to stop making them the target of the culture wars.” Biden further commented by saying, " “they’re our children...the kite strings that literally lift our national ambitions aloft in a literal sense" and reiterated that “they’re all our children.” Or in other words, when kids are in school and on school property, public or private, it is the school's responsibility to take care of them in a fiduciary way. But if conservatives like you don't believe that, then fine. Schools will no longer be required to determine who can and cannot pick up the children, who can and cannot enter the school campus, leave the children to protect themselves when an active shooter enters the campus and the teachers are required to fend only themselves. After all, the children are not their responsibility while in class. You really want this @spiritgide? At least that is what you are arguing here, aren't you?

No court has determined that you can forgo your tax obligations simply because you disagree with the political realm of things. That is not conflict resolution, that is absolute lunacy with no knowledge of how the law works whatsoever.

 

You only do the homework that fits your preferred conclusion- and that IS NOT wisdom.
Biden said, per the NY times and a multitude of news reports-

"President Biden reignited the culture war between parents and woke school curriculums Wednesday after telling teachers that children belong to them when they’re in the classroom.
“They’re all our children,” Mr. Biden said at a White House event honoring the teacher of the year. “They are not somebody else’s children. They’re like yours when they’re in the classroom.”

Seems you conveniently missed that.

Biden says stupid things- more often than logical things. That is normal with dementia, but Biden's words aren't coming from his thinking, because he's lost the ability to think clearly,. He says what he's told to say, believes what he's told to believe.

I didn't address the existing law- I addressed an injustice, an impropriety of law that allows this abuse- and a reason that should be corrected to deliver what is being paid for. This is a
what if", a how things ought to be statement. It's meant to cause you to focus on the disparity that damages our children and society- and that is certainly not the objective of most teachers, but seem to be the objective of some, and of many school boards. That is WRONGFUL.

Generally- I have great respect for teachers, and I've done a lot of teaching myself- however in skills, not if basic education. Because of this I have a lot of skill and knowledge is what makes people think as they do, what guides the development and function of how we think. Regardless of that- IF you are not achieving the objective of your job, things need to change. The change needed is not to go off on a tangent, but to focus on the first and primary purpose of your job. Most teachers are aware of the importance of their role in shaping the minds of children- but the shift in that understanding has dramatically soured many i n that profession, and some have become corrupt in recent years. Especially among the people on boards of education- who quite often are not teachers at all, and have no idea what the process really requires.

Private schools consistently produce kids with dramatically higher skills and far better attitudes than public schools. There is absolutely no argument that this is possible- the difference between private and public schools is universally similar. Yet public school administrations invariably fight against the models that make private schools work- and continue to do a half-assed job or worse.

IF Biden wasn't demented and stupid- he would be saying we have to do exactly that, adjust our focus and process to learn from successful models; make more capable kids instead of more stupid ones.

Some years back I was teaching a job skill that is literally life or death knowledge. I had a student that managed the physical skill and could explain the processes- but repeatedly failed the written exam. We figured it out- he couldn't read worth a damn. That also meant he would not be able to read warning labels or instructions. Today, we have many young adults who cannot read, and cannot do basic math. The national literacy skill (reading) average is 7th grade. WE rank 33rd in the world in terms of overall literacy- and the countries ahead of us are Uzbekistan and many similar.

A lot of teachers are painfully aware of this, yet complaints and suggestions are met with resentment and intimidation from most public school administrators. I have a grand-daughter in her first year of teaching right now and the conditions are such she is wondering why she wanted to become a teacher, while struggling to pay off her student loan. Of course right now, they refuse to accept her payment on the loan because of political policies, but the interest continues.

Now if that level of dysfunction is what you want to cheer for, that's your business. It's NOT good enough for any parents who actually love their kids, and want to see them thrive in life.
If your team keeps losing and you keep doing more of the same, or worse lose focus of what you are supposed to be doing- you aren't smart enough to be a teacher, let alone someone administrating teachers..

 

Do you understand what context means Spiritgide?

As I said, when the children are at a school, the responsibility for the well-being of that child, while at school, falls on the school itself. This is true whether public or private. That being said, teaching a kid something as if they are "your own" is not only a time-honored tradition, it is a necessity in order to have order in the classroom. If you taught with multiple kids in one classroom, you know this to be true. It is far different, and far more expensive with a one-on-one tutor, which is not exactly teaching but just explaining.

If you don't want teachers to take responsibility for the kids while at school, then the school should not provide any protection to the kids whatsoever. No school lunches, no security, no discipline, no nothing. You cannot have it both ways, and you know it.

 

Why would that be true? They have nothing to do with the issue. The parents must have the ultimate say on what is taught in school. That does not mean they have to approve of the individual lesson plan. They provide a concept of what must be taught. It is the teachers job to comply with that concept. That is the purpose of the PTA which has been around for a hundred years or so.

 

Parents have always had the ultimate say by voting for their state representative or senator, attending school board meetings, and in my state, electing a member of the state board of education that approves all books in the classroom. The problem is these same parents did not do a bloody thing, pun intended, when the school board notified them of their open meetings. If they did not attend at that time, isn't that their fault to begin with?

Furthermore, the PTA is more like a "booster" club at the school. It is designed for parents and teachers to interact. Sadly, most parents do not even attend public PTA meetings whatsoever. Again, the parent's fault, isn't it?

Also, the PTA does not decide what is and what is not taught. That is based primarily by the state board of education which approves the books to be used in class. At the school level, each teacher provides a lesson plan to the department head and in some cases to the school principal or assistant principal. If there are issues, the parent can always talk to the teacher/principal before making it a school board item.

So again, all of this was available in the past, at every public and private school out there.

 

What you and the RNC is claiming is unfair and out of context. Here is Biden's statement made to teacher of the year celebrants:

"We always talk about 'these children.' They're not someone else's children. They're our children. And they are the kite strings that literally lift our national ambitions aloft in a literal sense. Think about it. If you got to do one thing to make sure the nation succeeded in the next two generations, what would you do? You'd want, I would say, literally, have the best-educated public in the world. Have our students gain confidence enough to know what they can do, to reach in. We have an obligation. We have an obligation to help them teach and reach their potential.
"You've heard me say it many times about our children, but it's true: They're all our children. And the reason you're the Teachers of the Year is because you recognize that. They're not somebody else's children; they're like yours when they're in the classroom. You represent a profession that helps them gain the confidence — a confidence they believe they can do anything."

You see how forgetting one word and taking something out of context can distort what is being said.

 

None of what you said negates what I said in any way whatsoever.

 

Uhm not really. What I said was parents were responsible for this mess. They always had the means, but the GOP says it was never there, to begin with, hence the HB 7 and HB 1557 legislation and all that.

What Spiritgide was proposing was, quite literally, no school should take responsibility for the children and it should only be the parent's responsibility. I said fine and that means the schools will no longer be responsible for the children whatsoever. That means no school lunches, no protection, no sent to the principal office, etc.

 

YOU have it upside down, backwards- and worse. Of course the teachers are responsible for the kids- and they are responsible for educating them. BUT that education cannot be in contradiction with the parental objectives. Teachers have no right to negate the will of the parents and teach those children harmful beliefs or things the parents believe to be false or detrimental. One mother reported her daughter, in early grade school- coming home and asking if she was born evil, because she was born white. Straight from a liberal teacher's mouth. Would you allow a school teacher to teach your children Islamic values for instance, which includes the idea that by killing infidels (non-believers) you are doing them a favor?

This is fundamental. The people primarily responsible for children, and ALL their upbringing, are the parents. We hold them both socially and legally responsible for that. The well being of the children is a physical safety issue- temporarily a duty of the teachers while supervising children. It IS NOT filling heads with ideology. It is BUILDING self worth and confidence, not destroying it. Teachers are hired to teach accepted basic skills- not ideology, or religion or political crap. To do so is to betray the trust and duty placed in them by both parents and society. School boards are the most responsible for that transgression, that shift in content.

Liberals consistently dodge the relevant facts by arguing irrelevant ones. That's why nobody but their own kind, the equally confused, has any respect for their opinion- it's obvious they aren't willing to deal with reality or responsibility, but are eager to tell everyone else how to live; to interfere with the rights of others but unwilling to be responsible for the consequences.

 

That is not "quite literally" what Springtide said.

You are saying the schools have to be all or nothing. That does not happen in any part of our society. We tell the police how to operate. That does not mean they have unlimited power. We tell the military how to operate. That does not give them unlimited power.

It is the teacher's job to teach. That does not include indoctrination. When they deviate out of that role, they infringe on the parent's right. That includes morals, religion, etc. This is especially true in the younger children where they not yet possess the ability to think for themselves.

 

What I highlighted in bold is the crux of your argument. I said fine. So the ultimate, logical conclusion is that the school will no longer be responsible for said children, not responsible for their welfare, their well-being, their security, their teaching, or anything. Kids can do what they will and what they please without any interference from the teacher. Basically, I used your own argument against you based on your premise. And since parents are going to be ultimately responsible, then parents, all of them, should be responsible for teaching them. Correct?

So the next question is going to be, how many of those parents will agree with that premise and take full responsibility including teaching their own kids? Some? Most? or All? It's either all or none here. Take your pick based on your own argument. And you cannot have it both ways, not in your argument that you set forth.

Not even MTG would accept that premise, nor would Governor DeSantis or any other GOP politician that is feeding this BS.

 

Yes, that is the logical conclusion. If parents want responsibility and only responsibility, then schools are no longer needed. Or in other words, the only option is "home school." And that would mean that MTG and other GOP politicians who have kids would be the ones teaching said kids. How much you want a bet no GOP politician will go for that idea.

And if you want to use the argument that the "Teacher's job is to teach" then you must also recognize that the teachers and the schools have the fiduciary responsibility towards those kids, or in other words, "all of our kids" as Biden pointed out.

There is no in between here in this argument, the way Spiritgide, made it.

 

Most of us understand that we should be able to tell an organization how they are supposed to perform without giving them unlimited power.

There is a very simple solution. Teach the three Rs. That way they do not infringe on any parent's rights over their own children. If a parent wants to go beyond those basics, then they can send their children to schools which indoctrinate.

 

The fatal assumption is that some people think they speak for all parents and that those who are speaking are parents to begin with. There have always been opportunities for parents to speak directly with teachers and school boards to discuss their wishes. This is state government becoming involved in local choices. This is based on the fatal assumption that the government speaks for all local schools, when in fact there may be differences in the wants and needs of different communities. Their main focus is not parents choice or rights because the parents are not being allowed to make choices the states are making them.
I wonder what would happen if parents wanted to stop discussion about "Southern Heritage" because they felt it glorified a revolution against our country and are worried this was a negative thing for young children to learn about our country.

It is not about parent rights ; it is about what version of "indoctrination" will be required.

 

There was no unlimited power to begin with. What happened in the past was these very same parents did not do one thing or made one cause for concern at all. Period. End of story.

I guess you have not been paying attention. DeSantis and the GOP now say "CRT is being taught in math textbooks." The problem, when asked for an example, the example provided was not even a problem in any math textbook whatsoever, it was a math problem on a website by a person who took another math problem and changed it up.



Again, what indoctrination here? You say the words, but have no idea what's its meaning. Just regurgitating what you heard on conservative TV, podcast, or radio like a good little sheep without any critical thinking whatsoever.

 

Until their children started telling them about things which their parents did not approve.

The one example standing out is when they started teaching sex related subjects while they were in the first grade.

 

We keep seeing this "strategy" of all or nothing- no middle ground of understanding. You take a side point and ignore the primary. Then you think nobody is communicating honestly.
You aren't paying attention, not understanding because you chose to ignore the point which I keep making clearer.

There are multiple issues here- and lumping them all, so they all have the same answer- is a joke. Like saying if I can't drive the bus any way and anywhere I want to, I'm not responsible for what happens to the passengers. If I can, then I get to decide how they should see the world and themselves, and it's no longer their parents business.

Rational people want schools to be responsible for teaching kids skills, such as reading, writing and math- not political ideology. You seem to be having a very hard time separating the two.

 

This is ridiculous propaganda. Biden said no such thing.

Considering citizens call the shots through local school boards and state government, you get what you deserve. You decided to have socialist K-12 public education.

You can withhold your taxes because the school board doesn't hire quality staff? Sure...

What does "teach" transgender mean? Anyway, you can have a voucher.

So, if a liberal doesn't approve of teaching the 2nd Amendment and the 1st guaranteeing the right to practice religion, he can get some of his money back? How about money back for time spent reciting the PoA?

I taught computer science, mathematics, history, accounting, marketing and entrepreneurship (business startups). If I teach these subjects to my grandkid, can I get back a portion of the money spent on his behalf? That would be at least a year of high school. I'd put the $10,000+ toward whatever he wants.

Can I get out of paying for the idiotic "war on drugs?"

OMG. A bureaucracy to assess student performance. Brrrrr. Just give 'em the voucher.

Give parents a voucher.

Consider this...


We just missed the Top Ten.

You'll have to pay higher salaries to attract better quality teachers if you want better schools.

 

Your mistake is thinking that you are the customer. The government pays for government schools, and those who run the government expect a certain product for their money. What they expect has not changed much in 150 years, but everyone seems to have forgotten what that is.

 

Democrats are in the business of advocating for teaching at the emotional level, republicans are advocating for teaching at the knowledge level. I know what side will win that argument with parents. It will show in elections and get more conservatives voting at a local level including school board elections. We will win this one I’m sure of it.

 

Wrong. The people who pay the bills are the customers- and if they hire agents to manage their system, they are the customers of those people to. The government works for us, because we pay the bills, not to mention the constitutional duty. The teachers are paid with our money, by our employees whose job it is to arrange that for us. They are supposed to expect- the services WE agreed to pay for; they are OUR AGENTS IN THAT RESPECT. The legal obligation of fiduciary duty requires that they always act in our best interests.

Local schools are generally financed with local property taxes, which will have a specific share of the levy dedicated to the express purpose of supporting the school system. That information, if not on your tax appraisal is readily available from your county treasurer's office.

Now if WE are not the customers- WHY are WE paying the bills? Taxes are the way we fund the operations of government- all of which in one way or another exist to benefit the people.
If you excuse the people who abuse you- it only gets worse.
We are paying for Education- NOT Indoctrination. Big difference.

 

"in loco parentis." teachers have responsibilities.

parents can not be allowed to indoctrinate their children into little psychopaths.

 

Yeah because only the government can do that with their public education system....