Remains of 215 children found buried at former B.C. residential school, First Nation says

You claimed it was my opinion it's a genocide. I proved the culprits claimed it was a genocide. And you should have known that from the start if you had any interest in this subject. And now you demand evidence as if this never happened. I sourced that in post 140. But for "the luls". The government approved that the kids to be starved for the sake of a medical experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Nations_nutrition_experiments
The experiments were conducted on at least 1,300 Indigenous people across Canada, approximately 1,000 of whom were children.[1] The deaths connected with the experiments have been described as part of Canada's genocide of Indigenous peoples

Is it now time for you to shut up?

 

Seems you got no reply to:

And so are conceding.

 

You desperately need this for some reason.

I ignored the content of your post because like most of your posts in this thread, is off topic. "The OP "In essence, the European "civilization" is the civilization of the cannibals. Think of the Crusades, the Inquisition..."

Embarrassing.

 

I actually aware of nutrition experiments and how reprehensible they were. But here's the thing. How are they linked to the point in dispute? Are you claiming there is evidence proving the bodies allegedly buried at the sites in question are victims of those experiments? Do you have proof that this is so? If not what is the relevance of the link you posted?

My point, my only point is that it is not sufficient to merely claim there are mass graves of abused children at the sites in question. The existence of those graves has to be proved as matter of fact. And beyond that assuming at least some bodies are discovered where possible what were the likely causes of death (i.e. to what extent was abuse an issue).

Once again, I'm not denying the existence or importance of the genocidal impacts of European civilization on Canadian indigenous tribes. That is a matter of historical record. It's important and should both be acknowledged and remembered. The thing is though because its important, because it matters, because it deserves to be remembered it should not be tarnished by potentially false claims simply because those falsehoods serve a purpose and/or some people want them to be true because they serve that purpose. Serious claims deserve serious evidence. Anything less falls right into the hands of the deniers and revisionists. Like all important causes the plight of the indigenous people of North America deserves to be supported only by the truth, not by falsehoods deliberate or otherwise.

What the hell do you think holocaust deniers would do with widely publicized claims of an large but (unsubstantiated) number of deaths at the hands of the Nazi's during WW2 at site X which later turned out not to exist & never to have happened? Same thing in this case.

Prove the deaths occurred, prove the bodies exist, and (where possible) that abuse occurred as well as that deliberate attempts were made to hide/disguise both the deaths and their causes. The latter might not be possible to prove easily due to an absence of records but the former definitely is provable. If (and its still an if at this point) the bodies of the victims actually lie at the places claimed then they deserve nothing less.

Back to you. Prove it, it deserves to be. And if you can't?

 

So you're done circle jerking. All what stands is that I debunked your claim it's a hoax.

 

The prove is out there with what the Catholic church and the government did. By underfunding so badly that there housing was crap, just like the food. It's documented they had sickening harsh abusive conditions. And they preformed medical experimentations on them kids as well on the side. And the result is that they documented a lot more children died in their care than normal. Any normal person would understand that there is a direct link between how those kids were treated and why they died so often. But here you are claiming there is no prove and I need to prove it some more. This is like talking to a nazi who denies the holocaust. Or some Turk denying the genocide on the Armenians. Or some Japanese denying the genocide in Japan.

Your opinion that there is no prove since there are no bodies found is irrelevant. The opinion of the Catholic church and the government who documented it, matters. They did it. They documented it. They acknowledge it's genocide.

 

How did ""The OP "In essence, the European "civilization" is the civilization of the cannibals. Think of the Crusades, the Inquisition..." debunk anything?

Where are the bodies?

 

You're leaving out "concentration camps, the extermination of millions of Indians ...." That's not debunking anything. That's pointing out the extermination is part of the topic. You called it a hoax. I proved you wrong.

Ask the culprits who acknowledge it's a genocide with their own documentation about how many kids they got killed.

 

Now this is just getting sad. I repeatedly stated that my comments relate purely to the alleged claims of mass burials at the sites in question. Nothing else. Not the history of the Catholic Church in Canada. Not the impacts of European settlement on it's native peoples. Just that one singe issue.

But all you do is response is keep dodging that issue and deflecting on to other topics. I'm not discussing the quality of care in Catholic orphanages and care institutions or denying the devastation caused to native Canadians by them. Same thing for Government run institutions. History has already proven both systems have had an appalling track record world wide, or to be fair most of them have. As in all things there there are or were well documented exceptions, just not enough of them to clean the stains or undo the damage caused by all the bad ones.

Your also wrong about Church and Government records documenting what happened to the children involved in this particular set of claims. The records don't show there are bodies buried where they are claimed to be. The records relating to the children in question are either missing or incomplete. All that proves is that they are unaccounted for, nothing else.

And stop lying while your at it. Point to one post, one single post where I 'denied' the terrible events and appalling standard of care inflicted on Canada's indigenous people by the State and Church. Because there isn't any post where I did that. Hell, I'm the also one who brought up the issue of Holocaust denial to begin with by pointing out how such people would use false allegations of Nazi atrocities, even unintentional ones to fuel their lies.

All I've done from the beginning is query the specific allegation/claim made by you and then asked you to produce proof of that allegation. All you done from the beginning is try and avoid answering my question and/or get offended I dared ask it in the first place! And you've failed to produce produce that evidence BTW. Apparently in your mind the truth is unimportant and the end justifies the means. So what if I can't find evidence to definitively prove there are 200 plus dead children buried where I say they are buried, my opinion on the matter is waaay more important than the truth and anyway and if I keep saying it long enough and loudly enough? Well it becomes the 'truth' anyway! Who the hell do you think you are ? Donald Trump?

And all that's despite the fact that if the allegations are true (and they could well be) then the children concerned have the right to be exhumed and then receive proper burials amongst their own peoples along with having their legacy acknowledged by all. Have this happened?

Lastly? No. I'm not expressing an opinion on the matter. Your either clueless about how debates work or else deliberately choosing to ignore how they work. Your the one who chose to start this thread. Fine then, your the one who has to substantiate the claims you make in it. Not me.

Me? All I've done is ask the question 'what evidence is there to support your claim?' I'm not denying it occurred, it's entirely possible it did. I'm just asking for the you to produce evidence proving the claim that there are X number of bodies buried at Y locations. And these are human remains we're talking about. If they are in fact buried where they are claimed to be then there will definitely be forensic evidence of their existence. Perhaps not for all of the bodies but certainly for most of them. And if they are there?Then they definitely deserve to be repatriated. The thing is that someones assertion there are bodies buried at some location is not proof that the bodies are actually there.

So all I need you to do is answer this one simple question. Have the bodies of the missing children referred to in your original post been located yet? Yes or no.

(I suspect you won't answer the question BTW or rather that if you do you'll just defect off on some tangent in order to avoid answering directly. But we'll see. Maybe you'll surprise me and you do have the integrity to answer that question directly.)

 

No, the bodies haven't been found, yet. But it's irrelevant, because of the records prove the genocide happened and the acknowledgement is there.

Your initial point was "I just demanded the evidence"
That point has been met, with the documentation and witness accounts.
The culprits accepted it, and labelled what they did "genocide"

 

Thank you, finally. Yes, the bodies have not been found. As I noted previously the documents, such as they only prove that the children are unaccounted for. To the point in some individual cases that it cant even be certain the children involved were at the specific homes at the times of their disappearance. In and of itself that's indicative of how negligent the system was in keeping track of children in its care but that absence of information doesn't prove they died and were buried as claimed.

As for witness testimony? So far as I know (and I have tried to keep track of this story)? All of it seems to be is hearsay i.e. the people who have come forward and identified sites where they were told by others that children were buried. That doesn't mean their statements can or should be ignored BTW nor does it mean they are not useful to would be investigators. That's because mostly their reports seem to have been fairly specific about the locations involved. They're still large but not so large they cant be searched nor are the areas involved hard to search i.e basically they're just flat open fields. War crimes investigators/forensic pathologists routinely locate and extract human remains from far more difficult terrain. I'm also aware some searches have been conducted. And nothing has been found. And here's the thing once a probable location has been identified mass burial sites are pretty easy to locate.

So if these crimes were committed when and where claimed then there needs to be a serious and open accounting. But at the same time asserting that these crimes occurred when (until proven otherwise) there's no firm evidence they did just obscurates ALL claims by indigenous communities for justice. For example cynics will argue these claims were made up purely for financial gain. Incorrect claims, if shown to be such just taint and delay the entire process of reconciliation and justice.

 

Unaccounted??? They got loads of documents saying that the deaths in those concentration camps is far higher than normal. Hence it's all judged that it's genocide by the institutions who made and kept it. The entire issue is over because of that. There is no maybe this maybe that. All in all, this feels like talking to some German disputing the holocaust with that can't be certain 6 million of them died. Some Japanese are also like that with their history about genocide in China. Or the Turks with the Armenians.

 

Diversion. Again.

In reality? This conversation 'feels like' (and actually is) nothing more than me trying get you to admit that the particular deaths/burials in question have not be proven. Which you've finally, if reluctantly done. While at the same time also pointing out that the cause of indigenous recognition and restitution for past wrongs is too important to be contaminated by false claims. Why? Because such claims can be used to try and hinder/muddy that process and finally because if nothing else the children concerned and their families deserve better than false claims.

And as for me being a holocaust denier? Need I remind you that I'm the one who first referenced such people by pointing out how much damage a false claim about an alleged Nazi massacre could do do the memory of ALL Nazi victims just by playing right into the hands of the deniers. Which would have to make me the most confused and conflicted Holocaust denier in history!

Anyway just to be clear I am not a denier, not now, not ever. I am however someone who prefers not to hand deniers a free gift they can then use for their own propaganda purposes by making claims that can't be supported and which later turn out to be false.

No, the key issue here isn't that I'm a 'denier'. It's simply that you appear to deeply resent being called out on a claim you've made that turns out can't be substantiated. That's not my problem its yours. So please stop trying to shoot the messenger.

 

Just because there are no bodies, doesn't mean it did not happen. In fact, the culprits already admitted to it with the evidence they have themselves.
And so it's case closed.

You're picking out the holocaust, but you just might as well have picked out the genocide on the Amerasians, or on the Chinese. Or if, you will, the genocide on the Bosnian Muslims by the Serbs. A conversation with those people is just like having a conversation with you. Them lot, just like you, deny the evidence that is around for the sake to deny a genocide. In your case you category are not responding that it has been documented.

It's not as if the pope and the Canadian government care about your opinion that it's not proven. THEY say it did, with the documentation -that you ignore- that proves it all.

 

Million of Indians were killed in these residential schools? That sounds totally insane.

 

You blaming me for what somebody else posted as OP? lol
You're just distracting from the genocide theme that aint a hoax as your wanted to label it.
Thanks for trying.

 

Somebody else? You didn't write this?

 

No. No No. It is not 'case closed'. This is where your entire argument keep falling down. 'Just because there are no bodies doesn't mean it did not happen' also means that 'just because there are no bodies' there's also no proof it did happen either! And I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying (and apparently have to keep saying) that you haven't proved it happened.

My entire argument can be summed as as follows; You state that 200 plus children died of neglect and are buried in unmarked/hidden graves on the grounds at certain specific Catholic Care homes in Canada. OK, that means as the person making the claim you are obliged to provide the evidence supporting it. Your problem however is that do date, no bodies have been found and no official records of the burials seem to exist or if they do exist they have not been located yet. That means your claims about the burials are allegations of wrongdoing, not established fact. You haven't proven they occurred, you just keep insisting they did.

None of which means they cannot or will not be proven true in the future, just that they have not been proven true as of now.

Firstly I'm not 'picking' out anything. I raised the example of the Holocaust simply because its the arguably the most well known and historically well documented example of mass genocide. Any other well documented example would have suited my purpose.

Secondly and I don't know why I have to keep telling you this (and it's really becoming insulting BTW) I AM NOT A HOLOCAUST DENIER I have repeatably acknowledged the existence of the genocidal effects of European colonialism on not the indigenous peoples but for some reason this fact keeps escaping your notice. Why?

When you started this thread if you had just referenced the historically poor levels of care and the rampant abuse inflicted upon indigenous children in Canada by the State and church institutions in general I wouldn't even have batted an eyelid. But no, you had to zero in on and choose one specific claim to reference as 'proof' of this genocide (as if more was needed). And the problem? You haven't presented any proof of that claim. You admit the bodies have not been found but keep insisting that the deaths and burials are proven by documentation. OK then provide the documents that prove the burials occurred where you claim, in the numbers claimed during the time period in question. If you'd done that at the start and we wouldn't even be having this stupid conversation!

The thing is though and I frankly admit my research has not been exhaustive all the information I've been able to find to date indicates that official records, such as still exist do not seem to support this allegation.The records are simply too incomplete. Authorities have partial records for children entering the system during the period in question, partial records of children's movements within the system, partial records of some leaving it and partial records for others dying while in care. But with regards to these specific deaths and burials? The records are mostly silent. They provide little or no evidence one way or the other, which leaves witness statements pointing to the locations and most importantly finding the bodies themselves.

So anecdotally while people may rightly suspect the deaths and burials occurred and it's certainly a reasonable suspicion based what is known today about the care homes they're just still that. Suspicions. And suspicions are not proof (of anything)! To prove your claims either records have to be found that support them (none so far apparently) or else the remains in question need to be located and indeed deserve to be recovered. They haven't been.

So please stop with the insults and as I said previously stop shooting the messenger. The fact you dislike being told that currently there is little to no evidence the burials in question actually occurred as you claim is quite apparent. But your annoyance is your problem, not mine. Your bigger problem however is finding the producing the evidence. If or when you do? Well done. Till then? It's still your problem. That or you could simply acknowledge that yes, the allegations in question are unproven at this time but deserve serious investigation. Your choice.

 

You're distracting away that you lost the argument of it being a hoax. It's not. I proved it with a source in post 140. It's also on topic as discussed.

 

I proved the Canadian government and the Pope in the name of the Catholic church acknowledged it happened and called it genocide. And that acknowledgement is based on documentation.

I told you this endlessly. So it's obvious that you're reacting how some kind of Serb would do when the Serb disagrees the genocide in Bosnia happened. No amount of prove will be good enough. And frankly... who cares when the Canadian government and the Pope made up their minds based on research.

 

So you found the bodies?

 

You didn't prove that, its all ready on the record. Both organizations apologized when the allegations first became public knowledge against a background where they already had a a hell of a lot of apologizing to do for their often (but not always) terrible treatment of indigenous Canadians and in the case of the Church, indigenous people world wide. For that matter both the Canadian Government and the Church still no doubt have a lot of apologies to make. Both institutions know the standards they set and practices followed in their care institutions were then and are now unacceptably.

That said as of 2023 multiple news sites including the New York Post are reporting that after extensive searches of alleged sites no bodies have been found. Even Catholic Church media have commented on the fact that the no bodies have been found while insisting that searches of sites not yet examined should continue. I believe a small number of bodies have been located at previously known grave sites (could be wrong) but not at the sites at the center of the allegations. None.

Finally some leaders of certain indigenous groups at the center of the claims are now admitting that to date bodies have not been located at the sites indicated while still insisting that the schools traumatized the children in their care (which from reports they certainly did). But this not exactly the same as the the original claims that were put forward. (Links available for the above or you can do your own searches.)

So, one more time you haven't provided one single piece of proof, the Government and the Church haven't 'made up their minds' about the alleged burials - they've accepted blame for the way the schools were run and the documented offenses etc that occurred in them. Apologies that were made occurred before the searches conducted to date found no evidence of the missing children. As of this date the burial sites are not documented and no bodies have been located.

Which given your attitude makes you the 'Serb' in your example. You've obviously made up your mind that X is the 'truth' and nothing will change that. Like the Blues Bothers (and radical Serbs) your on a 'mission from God' and nothing will deter you from pursuing your 'truth' regardless of the fact you can't prove it. I don't know if you perhaps suffered some trauma in the past yourself but falsehoods, even unintentional ones are not 'truth' and not a good basis for building a life. Do better.

 

I'll be referring you back to post 140, and add that the culprits have admitted to these atrocities based on the documentation they made themselves. Subsequently they labelled it genocide.

You're free to attempt to change the minds of the Canadian government and the Pope with your disgusting lies and trolling attempts. You can post the press release if you accomplished that they changed their minds.
Thanks.

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/25/1113...anada-residential-schools-indigenous-children
A 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Commission report prompted by the harrowing tales of survivors concluded that "[children] were abused, physically and sexually, and they died in the schools in numbers that would not have been tolerated in any school system anywhere in the country."

And the pope as well as the Canadian government have apologized for that and called it genocide.

You're the one to blame for that for endlessly pretending to be oblivious for the genocide that has been recognized for so long and that the pope himself as well as the canadian government have recognized. It is part of being responsible for ones actions.

 

The remains were found with a ground-penetrating radar during a survey of the school.



A profile view image from a ground-penetrating radar survey showing reflections produced by known graves. The two upside down U shapes are subsurface reflections from a material that differs from the native soil - in this case, metallic coffins. (GeoScan)