Israel comes under heavy rocket fire from Gaza, suspected terror infiltration

If I'm walking down the street and I am suddenly attacked by a group of armed men, I have a natural human right to act in self defense, and I am justified in responding with armed force.

If I accidentally shoot a bystander while defending myself, that death is on the people who attacked me.

That's basic self defense, but we can add some nuance to make it apply more to the Israel situation. Same scenario as above, except now I'm black, I'm attacked in a small racist town, and the unarmed bystanders caught in my crossfire are racists cheering my attackers on.

Again, I would not, in general, be responsible for those deaths, although my justified actions aren't limitless.

 

These politicians arguing for Gazan refugees are fools, and not just for failing to recognize the threat to us, but for acting against the Gazan cause they claim to represent.

There needs to be a massive effort to help innocents avoid war. But they don't leave Israel. Israel must carve out an area for tent cities etc.. We may need a small amount of territory/security help from Egypt/Jordan. I'm not sure exactly how; I would need to pore over maps for hours...

But although my immediate concern is protecting innocents from war, I'm also against the final outcome as the expulsion of the Palestinians. If they have left Israel, I don't think Israel lets them back. I say the refugees stay...

 

I would agree with every point. We find ways to add light to the black and make it gray, so that it can be made acceptable. Usually it involves calling the death a casualty and justifying it logically. We find ways to make it acceptable to our own conscience, especially when we are powerless to stop it. Few of us would be capable of accepting intentional or even accidental homicide without such justifications. War itself is a grand justification for killing, when the concept of the tribe is placed above the sanctity of life and killing is called self-defense, even when great number of those dying are not combatants.

Those at the receiving end will likewise find ways to cope, usually embracing ideas of dying for a purpose, of the death being part of a divine plan, of the deceased being in a better place, that they will see a deceased loved one again in paradise, etc.

But we should remember that beneath all of the justifications, the basic reality is always the same -- humans are ending the existence of other humans, cutting short the lives of others. It is interesting how differently we tend to react to that based on context and justifications. We punish murderers severely, and likewise drunk drivers who unintentionally kill. Yet we honor those who kill in a military capacity as heroes because they killed for a cause that we collectively accept as valid.

 

The reason I'm not responsible for bystander deaths during self defense is because I'm not necessarily in control of my actions when my primitive self defense instinct kicks in. I'm not in control of my faculties enough to see the bystanders downrange from my weapon in order to account for their safety. When I'm attacked my mind enters a certain mode, and when I'm in that mode, I'm not operating under my normal moral obligations, and not by choice. The choice was made by those who flipped my primitive switch.

War is also a psychological mode people enter but on a mass scale. It's not realistic to demand the soldier, commanders, analyst monitoring the drone feed that green lights the bomb, etc., to consider their entire moral framework that they had pre-war before making every decision.

It's like asking the individual being attacked to ignore the tunnel vision their primitive instinct has initiated, and use their pre-attack moral framework, and consider the safety of bystanders, before pulling the trigger.

 

I don't know. Ask a U.S. citizen who supports Hamas.

So, those are your reasons for supporting ethnic cleansing - that's pretty lame.

 

why lie about my motives. i don't support what you call ethnic cleaning. I support Israel engaging in self defense against murderous scum

 

The basis of Israel is ethnic cleansing. When you support Israel, you support ethnic cleaning even if it is unknowingly. Murderous scum exist with all ethnicities.

 

no it isn't. the basis of opposition to Israel is hatred of Jews. Having lots of Jews from Europe move into Israel is not ethnic cleansing. If you oppose Israel you support Nazis and Black September, Hamas, etc, even if unknowingly

 

Why do you suggest sympathizing with Palestinians is supporting Hamas?

 

Do you support America?

 

because I see lots of hatred towards Israel by those who claim to only sympathize with the Palestinians, many of whom support Hamas

 

Well, that's a bunch of ignorance.

 

These people do not support Hamas' attacks upon Israeli civilians.

They also believe that Jews have a god-given right to live in all of Palestine, just not with their own state.

 

Updates:




links:

Mideast teeters on brink of wider war...
Biden's trip riskiest of his presidency...
High-stakes visit!
America deploys thousands of sailors, Marines... Top general in Israel...
Has Israel decided NOT to launch ground invasion?
IDF warned of booby traps, ambushes...
With dreadlocks, hipster beards, reservists called up...
Putin in China meets 'dear friend' Xi...
UPDATES...



IRAN VOWS 'PRE-EMPTIVE ACTION'
REVOLUTIONARY GUARD THREATEN SHOCKWAVE

 

Many Israelis sympathize with Palestinians. I haven't seen anyone support Hamas on this forum. I have seen many hoping that Gaza is flattened, not caring about the civilians, some calling for a nuclear bomb to be dropped on them

 

There are a few folks here who refuse to condemn any Palestinian "resistance" and think the Jews in Israel are fake.

 

It's my understanding Hamas killed 600 IDF soldiers and many others abandoned their posts instead of defending their civilians. Regardless of whether or not that's true, Israel is the Occupying Power of Gaza. It has a legal right and responsibility to protect the civilians under its control and no right to declare war on them

More than 3000 Palestinians have been killed in the last ten days one-third of which are children and no end in sight.

Israel has been practicing ethnic cleansing in Palestine since 1948. Millions of Palestinians have been killed, maimed, and displaced over that time. It appears Israel is about to add one-half of the Gaza Strip to its colonial project, and I find it hard to blame the deaths of "innocent" Israelis on anything except the corrupt, fascist Jewish State.

 

What Israelis are doing is no different to what happening South Africa. For 20 years nobody spoke out in Europe, then finally the "free Nelson Mandela" movement gained traction. Eventually the South African "terrorists" were praised as heroes and the Zulu fought back and gained back their country and freedom.

There is really no difference atm. Israelis have to come up with a genius plan if they don't want to go down in history as just another afrikkkaner white supremacist state.

 

Classic, Bob. A picture tells a thousand words

 

True, true. The islamaphobes see Jewish ppl as the lesser of two evils purely on the basis that JewISH PPL are from their tribe, whites.

 

The Israeli ambassador to UK today said categorically that THERE IS NO HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN GAZA.

 

This will not help Israel:

 

'Egypt says Israel is responsible for striking Ahli Baptist Hospital in Gaza City, which reportedly killed hundreds of Palestinian civilians.

Egypt’s foreign ministry strongly condemns the incident and says that Cairo considers this “deliberate bombing of civilians to be a serious violation of international, humanitarian law and of the most basic values of humanity.”

The IDF says it is still investigating whether its forces were responsible for the strike, or whether it was the result of a failed rocket launch or other cause.

“Egypt called on Israel to immediately stop its policies of collective punishment against the people in the Gaza Strip,” the Egyptian foreign ministry statement adds'.

 

So says Hamas. They're fighting an information war, so of course they're going to come out with stories like this one. Lots of them.

 

I expect Netanyahu to kill as many Palestinians as possible before Biden arrives tomorrow.