Why did Islam radicalize?

I was watching a documentary on Egypt under Anwar Sadat and one thing that stands out in all the new clips of the massive demonstrations.. is that there are almost no Burkhas to be seen in the crowd? Women are standing tall in and proud right next to the men, and they actually had a voice. They wore western clothing, and seemed for the most part to be little different than women north of the Med in Europe.

What the hell happened between Anwar Sadat's day and today that made Islam radicalize to this point? It certainly wasn't this way just a few decades ago.

 

This is a surprise to you? Most Muslims want exactly what you or I want. The nutcases are a minority.

 

As says Frodo the nutcases of the Islam are a minority, like the nutcases of the Christianism, and both are the same and defend almost the same.

Just there is the problem that in Islam the moderates don't confront the radicals, and even they vote them. While in the countries where Christianism was the main religion, the people that defended a secular view fought them, and won, and thanks to that the radical christians are more controlled and they cannot do whatever they want.

 

"Islam" is about as radicalised as christianity. Look at the size of the radical in each group and the impact they have.

 

Traditional fundamentalism lends itself to radicalism.

 

Hey SiliconMagician,

Very interesting thread for sure!

A week orso ago, a documentry was broadcasted on the VRT here, the documentry was orginally made by, and for, France Deux. It was about Egyptian women and how they constantly need to face sexual harrassment: about 8/10 women gets sexual harrassed in some way.

Anyway, one of the Egyptian men who was fighting this very disturbing social plague -- said something about the "Gulf State" and "Saudi" influence on the Egyptian culture and the place of women in society. The man continued, and said that Egyptian women, 50 years ago, were wearing bikini's on the beach and that nowadays Egyptians were having a discussion if women should be allowed on the beach alltogether. So,... what a world of difference!

In short, and I'm sure some certain poster will come in here and deny everything, is that it are the Gulf states and Saudi-Arabia who are responsible for doing everything in their power to export their "way of life" -- their way of practicing religion. And in the process, Egpytians have become way more "conservative" than they used to be.

 

Leffe,...

...

Read between the lines, please. My guess is that SiliconMagician was trying to ask a very interesting question in the sense why some of these countries have actually took a step back on the scale of greater social emancipation.

 

When you want conserve traditional values you tend to take steps backwards.

 

Let's be truthful. American conservatism has a lot more in common with Islam than American liberalism does.

 

Are you currently living in Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

 

Careful there, muslims are a very diverse bunch. While what you said is probably true globally, it is not true for Egypt, for example. In Egypt, the nutcases are the majority.

http://pewresearch.org/assets/datatrends/numbers/1184.gif

 

What do you mean by that? We know how is the life in Saudi Arabia and is the worst country for the women to live. Much worse than Iran.

 

I was thinking about you...

=> Me not living in those backwards countries doesn't change anything about the fact that these Gulf countries, together with Saudi Arabia, are pushing and trying to impose, and have been pushing and trying imposing for decades now (!), their interpretation of Islam upon to the greater Islamic world.

 

Right now Islam is pretty much in it's own "Dark age" just as Christians were in the middle ages, when good religious people burned their own wives and daugters at the stake for witchcraft. Southern Baptists would probably be just like Muslims if they could get away with it. LOL!

 

A religion or a belief system shows its true character at the fundamentalist level. Because the principals that the belief system is based on---is the core. A moderate muslim is ignoring some of the principals that the fundamentalist muslims take seriously.

To compare a fundamentalist, conservative....Southern Baptist....with "radical" Islam is silly. We aren't motivated to kill those who disagree with us, call for the death of those who have opinions that differ then us. Free Will is a basic core principal of fundamentalist Christians. If anything....our crime is to vote the wrong way and pray in public.

Liberals hate how we vote, scream when we pray in public or display something with the word "GOD" or a cross. They take steps to make sure such things don't happen through a powerful federal government or appointed judges who view our constitution loosely. They can't allow themselves to be offended. Something they share with Islamic "Radicals" who attack people and kill people when their religion is offended.

If anything....liberals and atheists share the same totaltarian principals with "radical" Islamists. Because totaltarianism is in their core principals of both ideologies.

A fundamentalist Christian nation is the key to freedom....the freedom to offend and the freedom to have a different opinion...

 

Seriously do you believe this trash? Christianism does not attack the others? What the hell are you saying?

As a laicist and like all liberals what we say is that the religion must be out of government. In your private lifes you can do whatever you want. But stay out of government because is trying to impose your religion to the rest. Your beliefs to the rest.

And that Christians are not totalitarian, who are the ones that want to ban the abortion, who are the ones that want to quit rights to the homosexuals?

And your last paragraph is the most brutal nonsense ever read, freedom like in the Mediaeval times? Remember that until the enlightenment period the nations were fundamentalist Christian, and freedom was the thing that less they had. Whatever religion if it is involved in government it means that country will be less free. That is a fact.

I have to mention all the envy of fatwa of the Christians? If Christians don't control the countries and impose their beliefs is thanks to that ones that you call "totalitarian" the liberals, the seculars, that control the imposition of a religion and repel this. But if Christians would have more power they would impose their beliefs, just we have to see the beliefs of Santorum.

Christianism always has been linked to fascism. I remember you how free was the Christian Spain of Franco? Yes, Spain was a Christian nation from 1939 to 1975.

 

Islam agrees with Christianity in all these respects. I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. Christianity has had as much if not a more bloody history than Islam. Would that mean Christianity is an evil religion as well? Unfortunately, Islam has been hijacked by extremist elements in society. There is less education in Islamic countries than in other parts of the world. The two combined make a potent mix making it easier for extremists to promote their own agenda by twisting and misinterpreting the teachings of Islam.

One of the first things that Muslim children are taught is that during the Prophet Muhammad's own life, he was ridiculed and thrown garbage and other worse things at by the non believers yet not once he tried to take revenge or ask his followers to do so but turned the other cheek. The word Islam itself means peace and respects the freedom of the individual to their own thoughts, beliefs and opinions.

Apostasy is indeed a thorny subject as far as Islam is concerned. The Quran say:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion"

It even speaks of the one who converts to Islam and back again and does so repeatedly and goes on to say that such person will be punished in the HereAfter. At no place does it suggest that the person should be punished in this world in any way.

The problem could stem from the fact that the major wars at the time was between Muslims and the pagans who worshipped their idols. Many of them would pretend to be Muslims in order to cross enemy lines and commit treason. Those punished at the time were not punished solely for having converted out of Islam but the punishment was for treason.

This article sums it up quite well:
http://en.irangreenvoice.com/article/2011/oct/01/3275

 

Totalitarianism has happened in Christian Countries...but not because of it but in spite of it. And its not a lasting situation because totalitarianism is not a foundation of Christian belief.

For example: When free access to the Bible wasn't available, and people depended on the "elites" for their interpetation of God's word. That was trouble.

And U.S Liberals don't have religion in government now. What they want is a new interpetation of the Constitution that doesn't protect religeous beliefs but protects people from being offended by seeing or hearing anything religous. Very much like radical Islamic thinking. What they want is a country where all values are like their own--and are willing to use any means to achieve it. Very much like radical Islamic thinking.

And I wouldn't be touting all that "enlightenment" period to much. This was the time of enlightened mobs killing Christians, burning churches and cutting off heads of anybody that wasn't part of their club. Much like Islamic radicals do today.

You yourself---wouldn't last very long in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or any other Middle East Country. Thank goodness you live in a country that still has the foundations of Christianity in place, for a while.

 

2 things

Living under dictatorships leaves people of no hope because ther wealth is not shared and in that situation people turn to God because no one else seems to be helping or listening to them. It makes people more religious.

That then is the perfect place to breed radicalism. When you have 50% poor and cannot read then the radicals move in. They then preach that they are the saviours and everything they say is true and must be obeyed. If you do not obey then you go to hell simple as that.

Now if you say that to a peasant in a village that they are doomed to hell if they do not listen to YOUR interpretation of Islam they obviously simply will be scared as children are.

This is exactly why you are now seeing Egypt being flooded with wahabi beliefs a la Abu Ismail and ready to die for him.

His target is the 50=% illiterate peasants who should have been looked after by Mubarak but instead he ignored them and they turned to the only thing left which was religion. Those Wahabi are teaching their version of Islam. The problem is Saudi Wahabi and it is spreading and if you truly were concerned you would all be wondering about what do do with the nest of radicalism Saudi but you are not because you have your own interests. That was why you never bothered with Mubarak etc and all the rest. You left them to treat the people so they had no choice but to turn to the only thing they had left. Allah BUT now the Wahabi are moving into the scene and our catastrophe is now yours.

The moral of the story is to be moral. NOT to support dictators because in the end this is the result. Learn not to only think of your own interests and greed. Very soon you get back what created.

 

great post!!!!!

 

That is true for Islam as well.

Thanks.

 

Your lack of knowledge of history is impressive. Well nothing to be surprised about that, but.

And sorry, but as an anarchist that I want the abolition of religion(and yeah I am radical in that), I don't want to impose anything. You can practice your religion at your home, at your church or whatever. But you cannot avoid give my opinions, you cannot avoid that I say that religions are dangerous, that are authoritarian and believe in a God is stupid. You cannot avoid make parody of all that religions.

And I've seen many religious that would like to avoid all that. That is the fact. No one wants to impose our beliefs, laicism assures true freedom, and I defend the laicism, total separation of church-state. You defend that the state must be Christian, it means that you are trying to impose your religion on me. I don't want any religion in the state, in that way everybody can practice freely any religion or none of that.

Christians, Jews, Islamic all are the same and defend the same, impose your religion on the rest.

And about burning churchs, you know that convulse periods the people revolt against the ones that they were oppressing them, nation and church were the ones that were oppressing the people. The church was also with the kings imposing their power on the people, were enemies of freedom, like always.

The enemies of freedom in any particular order are:

- Religion
- Nationalism
- Capitalism

 

Reality trumps words. Even you...I bet...would think that if someone burned a Koran, the killing and murdering that follows from muslims is the fault of the Koran burner, not the people doing the killing and murdering.

Christians would turn the other cheek if their precious Bible was burned (and we have right?) We stand by our tenants when a cross is put into a bottle with urine. Or when people mock our God and Savior.

And I doubt that Muslims have much respect for us....that allows our God and Savior to be mocked. Because they don't have the same principles that we do. There is a huge, insurmountable difference between Islam and Christianity.

 

Learn the next: Christians accept the mock because we live in countries that no more than that permit. If they had power and they would have been backed up by the government they would kill the atheists and any enemy to Christianity, that is the reality.

For example in Spain there is a law to protect the religious beliefs, and now with the conservative in power, they have increased in power and for example they've won lawsuits against acts done 20 years ago, like cooking Jesus, a parody done in the 80s and now the guy that did that have been condemned. That is the reality, Christians are like Islamic just they have less power to do the same things.

 

Can you send me a link to this lawsuit? The only thing I see is the banning of the Burka....which IS more of a secular attempt to ban a religious belief.