more proof that Palestinians don't really want peace with Israel.

So you don't refute the facts. Good. In the end that tactic is a loser. Yet you persist.

 

Friend, I am not here for a tit for tat... In your over zealousness your forgot the need for basics of a debates, it is to disagree with your opponent in an agreeable fashion... This is what I would aim to do from now on.

To thumb your nose at the person you are debating with is a big no no in a civil discourse... You follow the line and the wishes of the world Arabs, this is not obvious today but it is a fact... to go beyond this by stating lowly statements as rubbing his nose in it... would not help at all and is not a real starter. Following this, you do not become a worthy opponent but rather someone beating the drums of discontent with the need to win one for the Arabs..

 

Sorry, HBendor .... that was another HB strawman. There was no tit-for-tat involved. I was pointing out your utter inability to provide substantive rebuttal. It is indisputable. Here, I will remind you of the quality of your ripotes:

 

Sorry, HBendor .... that was another HB strawman. There was no tit-for-tat involved. I was pointing out your utter inability to provide substantive rebuttal. It is indisputable. Here, I will remind you of the quality of your ripotes:

** CLANG **

 

Palestinians ‘Peoplehood’ Based on a Big Lie –
Gefen Publishing House·November 28, 2012··

“What unites Palestinians has been their opposition to Jewish nationalism and the desire to stamp it out, not aspirations for their own state. Local patriotic feelings are generated only when a non-Islamic entity takes charge – such as Israel did after the 1967 Six-Day War. It dissipates under Arab rule, no matter how distant or despotic.

A Palestinian identity did not exist until an opposing force created it – primarily anti-Zionism. Opposition to a non-Muslim nationalism on what local Arabs, and the entire Arab world, view as their own turf, was the only expression of ‘Palestinian peoplehood.’

The Grand Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husseini, a charismatic religious leader and radical anti-Zionist was the moving force behind opposition to Jewish immigration in the 1920s and 1930s. The two-pronged approach of the “Diplomacy of Rejection” (of Zionism) and the violence the Mufti incited occurred at the same time Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq became countries in the post-Ottoman reshuffling of territories established by the British and the French under the League of Nation’s mandate system.

The tiny educated class among the Arabs of Palestine was more politically aware than the rest of Arab society, with the inklings of a separate national identity. However, for decades, the primary frame of reference for most local Arabs was the clan or tribe, religion and sect, and village of origin. If Arabs in Palestine defined themselves politically, it was as “southern Syrians.” Under Ottoman rule, Syria referred to a region much larger than the Syrian Arab Republic of today, with borders established by France and England in 1920.” – Eli Hertz, Myths and Facts

Deir Yassin is the most infamous episode of Israel’s War of Independence. A basic founding myth in Palestinian culture, it serves as grounds for the claim that the Jews undertook genocide and mass deportation against the Palestinians in 1948. The continued Palestinian unwillingness to make peace with Israel stems in no small measure from the place that Deir Yassin holds in contemporary Palestinian consciousness. The Deir Yassin affair is also a founding myth of the new Israeli left, which casts doubt on the justification for the establishment and continued existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish national state. It is therefore not only a historic episode, but a very contemporary one.

“The Birth of a Nation” is a meticulously researched book, based on archives and abundant eyewitness interviews, shows that there never was any massacre in Deir Yassin, explains the motivations of the various parties for the blood libel that sprang up around this affair, and probes its consequences. Uri Milstein brings to his exposition of the facts a lifetime of experience in Israeli military history and a keen eye for the truth.

 

http://www.politicalforum.com/middl...stinians-dont-really-want-peace-israel-6.html

I don’t buy that, HB. I would suggest that what unites them in the first place is in fact the fury at the injustices that were done to them, and secondly to their bond of being continuous (no 2000 year gap) ancestral inhabitants of the southern Levant.

To pretend that it is nationhood that has driven them it to trivialise their plight. Of course, that does not mean to say that recent history has not driven them into seeking a way to secure their ancestral terrain, and that obviously the most practical route would be via nationhood. But it is not the prime driver.

Which makes one of the Top-3 Zionist myths so utterly irrelevant, namely that "there never was a Palestinian kingdom; there never was a Palestinian currency". That is trivial in the light the past century of being screwed by every passing colonialist goat.

 

Once again 'da capo' these peoples are not INDIGENOUS to the land of Israel... I gave you a list of personalities that came to visit and wrote about their voyages... too bad wanting to win a debate you will not bother to read the truth.
Klip people get older, people lose strength, people move, people get married, people have a natural instinct to raise their kids in a safe environment... those that want to (like you) perpetuate the status quo ante,. will eventually lose...
We have built a nice country from scratch and now some half wits miscreants pretend it is theirs... and you one who writes so well is backing the wrong horse... You will lose too!

 

This looks fun, I may add a post in a few hours.

 

What united the Palestinians was opposition to the injustices committed against them. In many instances in history the indigenous people have opposed the foreign colonial powers. The idea of "statehood" is more of a European concept to begin with. For example, most Middle Eastern countries didn't exist until during the 20th century through the mandate system, so it is illogical to only point out Palestine's upcoming in the early 20th century. The area was still called Palestine, but it was no more than a province, just as Lebanon was no more than a province of Syria.

Moreover, the quote says that "local patriotic feelings" only took charge following the 1967 war. This is untrue, the idea of a Palestinian state existed before 1967, it only accelerated after the occupation of their homeland by Israel. The Palestinians revolted against the British Mandatory in 1936-1939 to gain independence. Even earlier were the Palestinians demanding independence. There were seven Palestinian National Congresses held between 1919 and 1928. Delegates of the congress represented the main cities and districts of Palestine. This early Palestinian political organization passed resolutions expressing their fears of Zionism, and affirming their demands for national independence. The Palestine Arab delegations attending the Syrian-Palestinian Conference in Geneva demanded the independence of the federation of Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. They submitted a memorandum on October 24, 1921, stating that "the people of Palestine will not be satisfied with promises that some control of their own destinies will be given to them in the future, ... The Palestine people will never admit the right of any outside organization to dispossess them of their country."

To name a few examples, the Philippines declared itself a country only after fighting against Spanish rule. The Colombians fought against the United States when the United States bought the Panama Canal from the French, and later created Panama. The Indians went against the British colonialist power, declaring independence in 1947. The Native Americans opposed the European colonization of their land. Etc etc etc. The idea of an indigenous people opposing a foreign colonialist movement isn't a new concept in history. Palestinian opposition to the Zionist colonial movement is but one example.

The Jews in Palestine at the time wouldn't except anything but a Jewish rule. Again, the concept exists both ways.

 

This is not worth the paper nor the bandwidth used here... If we have to follow you poor line of though the 21 Arab States created this past century for the Self Determination of Arabs is also nil and void. Now I understand (perhaps) why Churchill in a meeting in Cairo decided to excise Trans Jordan from the Mandate and give 77% of it to an upstart from the Hedjaz, creating (Jordan) a fiction denude of people and history.
The so called remnants Arabs ensconced in Israel better go to Jordan before it is too late for Jordan and Israel form one unit and it is/was, still is the 'Mandate for Palestine'...

 

I'm sorry but you seriously didn't prove anything with that post...

 

I speak to educate those that need to be elevated to higher standards of knowledge... some fall by the wayside...

 

You mean the original Jews who did not take a gap of 2000 years; who remained in "the Promised land"; who converted to Christianity and then to Islam? Do you mean THOSE Jews? The ones we now call Palestinians?

HBendor, you have tried to weasel half-a-dozen times that those ancient Jews came from Arabia,AND EACH TIME YOU FAILED DISMALLY, as follows:

# You fiddled the Palestinian population numbers and you were caught out. Just sooooo bad!!!

# You claimed that the Palestinian population growth in the early 20th C could not possibly be due to natural population growth. But you were shown that it was ENTIRELY possible due to the high fecundity of Palestinian mommies, the improvements in appreciation of hygiene, the eradication of the malarial anopheles mosquito, and the better access to medical facilities and medication

# You claimed that there PERMANENT illegal immigration from Syria and quoted the "Survey for Palestine" but were shown that you had practice gross cherry-picking because you left out the bit that the admittedly illegal immigration was traditional and seasonal and that the workers returned to Syria after the harvest ... all explicitly enunciated in the exact same Survey for Palestine. Soooo Bad, HB .... so, so bad.

# You pretended to confuse readers by pointing out that the Palestinians were Arabs and that ARABS = ARABIA. That was just so lame that no-one even bothered to waste their time refuting your abominably lame thesis. I suppose you clocked this up as a "victory".

HBendor ... and Borat ... live with it. The Palestinians are your blood brothers. They, just like you:

# ... descended originally from the Canaanites

# ...underwent some hybridisation, although theirs was on a par with the Mizrahim and not nearly as profound as that of the Ashkenazim

# ... have an unbroken physical link to the promised land, as opposed to you who spent millennia elsewhere, including Jaca (Spain) and Kazakhstan (the latter = sarcasm)

So why not embrace your blood-brother instead of spitting on him?
Why steal from him instead of asking him to accommodate you because of your blood-bond?
Why prod him until he has no option but to react, and then claim "self-defence"?
Why massacre him in pursuit of your selfish greedy bigoted mission of 1897?

I am going to take a break for a while because you have proved yourself incapable of teaching me anything new via your nationalistic racist Zionist mantras of faith. I am quite frankly bored with your *CLANG* empty responses. Gilos has slid from a person I could learn from to a mirror-image of Borat and Hbendor, and Uri has gone quiet. I am going back to my water-colour painting for a while. Plus there are other venues where the debate is more stimulating, intellectually honest, and ethically defensible.

But I will come back on occasion to check that the stale and flaccid Zionist myths are not again in over-abuse, so as to be able to joyously proclaim MYTH BUSTED .... YET AGAIN!!!

 

I want to tell you for the LAST TIME... your attemps at implicating me by association is not going to work.

I never said the above... you should ne ashamed of yourself! If you think you are right prove it...!!!

 

let's make it clear, all overweening points listed above, you people use solely to excuse yourselves to your own consciousness since it is impossible for an average human brain to accept watching people die for more than couple of decades and cheer yourselves up while doing that. Now, for your information history didn't start in 1948 when you officially proclaimed the name of the land that was previously inhabited by your ancestors who had left it for more than one millennium ago, with who you lost every bond throughout centuries, who by the case lived all together with ancestors of people who were forced to leave their homes and move to 'specially designed' homes after they received you after the WW2, giving you honors on behalf of the atrocity called holocaust - and eventually who got stuck to one place since they had no other place to go other than moving out their Land which would be outrageous and unreasonable. Every further discussion on this particular issue, namely on zionist arguments would be degrading but it would be nice if you could decently refer to these people as Palestinians, since this is what they have been throughout centuries and for the sake of Muslims all over the world who saved your -not so far ancestor butts from the holocaust mind your language and general attitude.

Finally, that Land is the Land of people who were born there,raised there and care to spend their lives over there, people whose ancestors were living there for centuries in houses of their fathers, the houses you either overtook or crushed down.

[video=youtube;TkCBK4-5tRI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkCBK4-5tRI[/video]

 

Slyhunter ... The proof of the pudding is in the eating...!!!

We have two Arab antagonists that cannot mesh together and yet both are mortal enemies of Israel... one of them sneaks out and run to the General Assembly to change his status with malice, and then consider himself already a state, when in reality he cannot tie his own shoelaces.

Spokesman: Dismantling the [Hamas] Qassam Brigades is impossible

Abu Obaida [from HAMAS]: Dismantling the Qassam Brigades is impossible
15-01-2013,11:01
http://www.qassam.ps/news-6521-Abu_Obaida_Dismantling_the_Qassam_Brigades_is_impossible.html

Al Qassam website- Gaza- Abu Obaida, the spokesperson of the Qassam
Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, denounced the demand of Mahmoud
Abbass, who called for dismantling the Brigades as a condition to reach an
inter-Palestinian reconciliation.

"dismantling the Qassam Brigades is impossible, and it is not subject for
discussion, either today or in the future," Abu Obaida said on his Facebook
account.

Fatah insists on dismantling all the Palestinian military wings in the Gaza
Strip, and calls for regarding the Palestinian National Security Forces
(NSF) as the only Palestinian army in Palestine, Al Quds Al Arabi reported
quoting Palestinian sources.

All the Palestinian factions rejected the Fatah demand, particularly the
Islamic Movement of Hamas.

Abu Obaida stressed that the Qassam Brigades were founded to defend the
Palestinian people and the Islamic nation. "He, who dares think to dismantle
the Qassam Brigades, will be deleted from history".

This makes the situation even more tense because Hamas refuses to dismantle
the Qassam Brigades. Many Palestinian sides are afraid that the security
file is going towards explosion.

Both, the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the Egyptian government, are tensed
that the 'security file' would blow up the efforts made to reach an
inter-Palestinian reconciliation. The Islamic Movement of Hamas insists to
reform the Palestinian security apparatuses, which work in the West Bank,
and to take part in these apparatuses, leave alone refusing to dismantle the
Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas.

"The security file is among five main files that will be discussed with
Fatah, according to the Cairo agreement," Fouzi Barhoum, the spokesperson of
Hamas, said.

--------------------------------------------
IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

 

Good message....nice avatar.

 

Sorry to say that the above does not make it 'CLEAR AT ALL' it seems to me as an exercise of obfuscating reality.

Who is you people????????????? Who died and made YOU...the 'porte parole' of 'you people' what is this condescending and frustrating response from someone displaying the 'Swastika' as an avatar... I should have refrained from retorting but because there are a lot of readers needing information I am making an effort this time...

Listen friend, I do not have to defend nor apologize for Israel but of course, if you would have read a few books on history your chip might have already fallen off your shoulders... Sir, Israel is the Land of the Jews, period...!!! History and archeology attest to that from a - z...Now, also Israelis are not the Babylonians, the Mesopotamian, the Assyrians, the Incas, the Mayas that existed and were obliterated and other people took over their Land and build a modern state on it ashes that also speaks now the language of the conqueror. Israel is alive and well and has 20 Million adherents on this planet, we speak Hebrew... We have no other land to call our own, here the Patriarchs and Matriarchs of Israel were born and were buried, this is the Land of the Jews from time immemorial...

You can defame us and disparage us all you want... but I want also to emphasize that the Jews were defamed by professionals since men startedd reading and writing... what I meant is your description of my country is not going to change the spirit and its resolve... You would also be incensed if someone would take your home over while you are on vacation.

 

how about sight correction therapy?

ya see the part that I bold? Whose fault might that be? Fault of people who did stay and lived during centuries in Palestine? Is that by which you justify, the gradual displacement of Palestinians from their homes, i.e homes their forefathers built? Do you call a justice the fact that Jew whose ancestors for centuries lived in Europe and whose roots are deeply grown in Europe,despite series of horrible attempts to remove them by no less horrible creatures than your government and it's supporters- came one day and declared someone's land as his/her under no legal excuse?
That isn't the land of Jews, in fact no land on Earth, if we speak of justice, does belong to someone or a single nation. History and archeology, if we're gonna speak of it, attest proof of many civilizations being present in the area, what makes Jewish civilization more privileged than the others? That what you call 'Jewish right' is simply a well presented excuse to the rest of the population by a group of people, speaking Hebrew as you mentioned and practicing same religion in neurotic attempt to gain back a dignity that has been terribly taken, but you know what's wrong there? that cost is being payed by wrong people, Israeli agents could haunt nazi war criminals all over the world, but you can't deal with one Hamas, or better to say you couldn't be dealing with Hamas and Fatah at the very beginning when their 'power' couldn't be compared even to one third of your military power? They aren't that powerful now either, what made them more 'dangerous' is your neurotic agenda, which practically stuffed one population in disproportionate area on a number of population, where a so called terrorist is a needle in a haystack.

Son, if that was a valid argument, no Jew on Earth would survive by today. That 'period' thing is something that brought many disasters in a history of a human race, and if you're going to take it for granted than don't use a suffer of your Patriarchs and Matriarchs as an argument, since you obviously abandoned your legacy.

Isn't that something what has been made by your country and what makes your country proud? since that is what you've shown so far. if someone is guilty of Palestinians attacking (despite the fact that their single attack can't be compared to Israeli), it is your government. they raised the little beast, they shall face that beast accordingly (with even powers though which didn't happen by now obviously).

I refer to all people attempting to prescribe the guilt to a bogus terrorists and giving a significance to attacks of smaller scale, whether verbal or physical , after all aren't worldwide jihadists the only argument you (now referred personally) use for an excuse of really horrible treatment of Palestinians? Weren't you the one, prescribing a guilt to Muslims all around the world, forgetting the same important historical facts in Jewsih history, while using that same history without really having a valid single event of jewish harassment as a proof. the only analogy that follows your respond is the respond of a brainwashed little neo nazi, chanting on Hitler's image and cheering his accomplishments.

 

I take up your challenge with pleasure.

1) You didn’t do this? “# You fiddled the Palestinian population numbers and you were caught out.”
You have a poor memory, HBendor. Refresh your memory here:

That of course is completely untrue. Already in 1880 the Ottoman census shows over 400 000 Arabs in Palestine. Check demographer McCarthy on this, and many others (see subsequent link to a post which fllows – you can find the data here (click). I would call deflating the numbers 10-fold “fiddling the Palestinian population numbers”.
You cannot claim that you were not aware of this because you responded to my subsequent trashing of your numbers – here: http://www.politicalforum.com/lates...runner-show-comes-town-36.html#post1061800708

2) You didn’t do this? “# You claimed that the Palestinian population growth in the early 20th C could not possibly be due to natural population growth.”
http://www.politicalforum.com/middle-east/154844-beggars-cannot-choosers-3.html#post3051123 Here you will find your exact words claiming that.

3) You didn’t do this? “# You claimed that there PERMANENT illegal immigration from Syria and quoted the "Survey for Palestine" but were shown that you had practice gross cherry-picking because you left out the bit that the admittedly illegal immigration was traditional and seasonal and that the workers returned to Syria after the harvest ... all explicitly enunciated in the exact same Survey for Palestine.”
You did so further along in the above post. Not only that, but my response also showed that your math was rubbish - http://www.politicalforum.com/middle-east/154844-beggars-cannot-choosers-3.html#post3051123

4) You didn’t do this? “# You pretended to confuse readers by pointing out that the Palestinians were Arabs and that ARABS = ARABIA.”
Oh, oh!!! What is this then, HBendor?

Who is blind, HBendor?

You clearly posted all of those. So where is your bold claim now that you never "said" any of those things?

Thanks for posting the challenge to me.

 

You were referring to the following:

WAIT A MINUTE!!! YOUR DENIAL MEANS:

# That you now realise that there were numerous hundreds of thousands of indigenous inhabitants of Palestine by the late-1800s

# That you now believe that the Palestinian population growth was largely from a high birthrate and major improvements in health and the eradication of Malaria, and NOT from immigration

# That you did NOT claim that there was illegal immigration from Syria and thereby did not misquote the Survey for Palestine. Which means that you now realise that the Survey clearly stated that the immigration was seasonal and temporary, related to the harvesting time in Palestine.

# You understand that being called “Arab” does not mean that the Palestinian ancestors came from the Hejaz, just as being called “Arab” does not mean that the Berbers of Morocco came from there.

I congratulate you on having seen the light, HBendor. It has taken a long time, but WELL DONE!!!!

 

can you go on and read again what you wrote and see your point?

'then?'- when? you're accusing me for lack of facts in my responds, how the hell am I supposed to use any relevant event or argument if you're actually the one who's using generalized accusations, and even your description of Arabs is not something based on facts, but something based on propaganda. I don't doubt of you studying a history of 'your' country which is something referred to range of cca. 65 years. as a matter of the fact, and following your analogy above, Jews inhabited the area the same way Arabs did, in other words: as you said you fought these people, when they arrived to the area, won most of the battles, afterwards the others came to the same area, won most of the battles and squeezed you from that area and nowadays you're doing the same to Arabs. That land belonged to many states so far as I said and civilizations, what makes contemporary Jews who vaguely lost a deep connection to the civilization that inhabited the area privileged and what gives you special right over the area?

Thus, if you live in a house or place where house was crushed by force so that you could live there and where previous owners were expelled by force out their home which was their natural habitat, as it is the place where their forefathers lived, way before you came- that describes a term-taken; it's a fact.

Emir of Arabia is not someone whose words are being taken for granted, nor is Saudi Arabia or the Arabia at the time, the place that has all ownership rights of term 'arab'.

The display of my personal feelings is a response to your display of personal feelings, as it is the only thing that you offered by now including few arguments that came out as a result of propaganda.I feel no bit of proud over that but what i feel is justified criticism. There is no single argument you use but the one relying on 'militant islam'. You cannot fight the fact that PALESTINIAN population is population that has been suffering on account of Israeli neurotic agenda, Jewish population, came by, walked in smoothly and in not so long period asked for a country in a territory that is already been inhabited by Arabs who already established regular system of functioning. Again, those people welcomed Jews (without having a thought of any future event that will squeeze them away from their homes), after few years the same formed camps asked for a 'right' to form a country at that area. Israel was created, they suddenly became intruders and were finally stuck in a small area without any connection to the rest of a world. now they should leave as you did and become next global scapegoat? Israel cannot exist under current internal and external stipulation which is breaking international laws as Palestine did gain a recognition by UN. After all Noam Chomsky summed it up nicely:

Maybe you should take care of your wording while you're addressing a particular issue, you should have learned by now that these sort of issues can never have that sort of wording since it gives a sort of floppy reference and always expect an argument which fits the words you direct to someone.

As I said above, if you direct insults and gibberish than expect a person to give you an answer to that.

 

Why should they want peace with Israel?

 

I will not retort here and let Wafa Sultan anwer for me

This Video will be pulled very soon by Active Islamists, so please watch it several times, dowload it for your friends

Wafa Sultan the Problem is Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFN8ahYN1b0