This is from recent MSNBC new. Pro-Russians Fortify Barricades After Ukraine Ultimatum Pro-Russian separatists occupying buildings in eastern Ukraine responded to a government ultimatum Wednesday by reinforcing barricades around areas they control with tires, barbed wire and car fenders. The separatists stormed public buildings in the cities of Luhansk, Donetsk and Kharkiv on Sunday, demanding a referendum to join Russia like the one held in Crimea last month. U.S. officials contend the pro-Russian groups in eastern Ukraine are being backed by Russian agents and special forces. It would take too many "Russian agents and special forces" to build so much of barricades. Obviously, US officials did not want to see the truth. This is how local people respond to the government sent to Kiev from EU. Of course, diplomatic solution is still possible. Just listen to people, they told what they want - referendum.
So they're dumb! At least they're not being paid like the neo Nazi Maidan protesters. The U.S. spent fifteen billion trying to draw Ukraine to the West under a pretense of democracy and being able to work in the E.U. (which is going broke anyway), so it could put Nato on its borders. This means of course if there is a war you'll be the first ones blasted from here kingdom come...like the Poles of course.
I posted an interview by Dennis Kuchinich that's quite interesting. He talks about everything that is going on in Ukraine, and about the Neo Nazis in the government in Kiev. He said that he is one of the few people that actually studied the agreement with the E.U. that Yanukovich turned away from, and that it had nothing to do with economics, but was really an excuse to bring Nato up to Russia's borders. There was absolutely no benefit in it for the Ukrainian people. .
It is clear all along that the conflict not about benefits to Ukrainian people or democracy in the country. This is all geopolitics games. In latest MSNBC News, Kerr worries about escalating of conflict in Ukraine. This is not escalating, just a continuation of what had been started by Maidan intruders. Those people are not Ukrainians, they are invaders. Ukrainians do not want NATO and EU. Nobody run a referendum or asked their government.
Kerry Expresses Concern About 'Escalating Tensions' to Russia Secretary of State John Kerry expressed concerns about "escalating tensions" in eastern Ukraine to top Russian and Ukrainian officials Wednesday. Kerry spoke with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and interim Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk in separate phone calls Wednesday morning, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said. He told Lavrov that the U.S. was concerned about "escalating tensions in the east," and the two discussed meeting next week to talk more about Ukraine. A date and location for a meeting has not been finalized. Kerry and Yatsenyuk "discussed the ongoing efforts by the Ukrainian government to continue to address the situation in eastern Ukraine peacefully," according to Psaki. Kerry also spoke with him about meeting next week with the Russians. How Kerry is going to help? Why he did not stop NATO and EU in the first place. This is too late now, things are out of control, the life of Ukrainian people became very difficult and they know whom to blame for what happened. Course of events reached no return point.
What a ridiculous post. Putin is desperate to take Russia, and its old Soviet thuggery, back to the evil and despicable Stalinist era. He, and his heinous henchmen, must be stopped before the Ukranians are forced, once again, to bend to the will of the Russian yoke and be trampled and sent on an 'eternal holiday' to Siberia. Leopards never change their spots!
I wonder if the supporters of the illegitimate regime in Kiev are going to have just as high of standards in demanding they play nice and don't hurt anybody, just like they did for Yanakovych.
That's okay, the Ukrainians can free themselves from the Russians anytime they want, all they need is to ask the U.S. and E.U. to pay their debts, and not to expect Russia to subsidize them all the time. Other than the three billion Russia has given Ukraine in December so it wouldn't go bankrupt, (to the chagrin of the Russian people because of the Ukrainian lack of gratitude), in the past four years Ukraine has cost Russia thirty five billion dollars, and one third of that is the trade deficit they have with the E.U. Basically Russia is paying for that trade deficit, and Putin is getting sick and tired of it. Enough is enough. I think this is a warning from Moscow to the E.U. to pay up or they will stop the gas flow. I suspect Putin will stop the gas tomorrow. It seems he's annoyed at how indifferent the West is to the Ukrainian and Russian lives that might be lost when the fighting starts.
What we can expect next? It seems more Ukrainians will want to reunite with Russia soon, because Americans are not in a hurry to ship gas to EU and Ukraine. They can also cut their forests and burn wood for cooking.
The Russian speakers in the east of Ukraine would be wise just to sit tight and let events unfold in real time as opposed to pro-actively taking over government buildings etc.
[from locked thread] Really? Whether or not the government is legitimate should make every difference. If the new leadership aren't authorized by social contract, why should everybody be forced to accept them with no recourse? Unless you think they aren't that bad and that is the difference, I can't imagine why people should be forced. Is there any point where they have the right to sucede? What if Hitler 2 takes over and starts putting everybody into camps.. Could you not sucede even then? If so, then at what point is the line drawn? The right to sucede is based on whether there's valid Contitutional government in the first place. Kiev have no authority to ban the vote; they have no authority at all, except that which they exert by force. The West have been spreading lies to try to discredit the vote. First of all, there WAS a choice to stay with Ukraine. The two choices were join Russia or stay with Ukraine like in the 1992 Constitution. And the press were not banned at all. Western media and media all over the world were there. Who got refused? Also, international monitors were there. Their reports are ignored by the West because they didn't determine any funny business. As far as having no choice, that's what happened in Kiev. No Ukranian got a choice of whether or not to have their government replaced. I think it's ridiculously hypocritical when these people complain about lack of choice when in actuality they are the ones who supported exactly that. What choice did anybody have for the Yanakovych status quo? There's no indication though that Russia was violent. Yet when it comes to Kiev, violence and occupation was the name of the game. They took over the government buildings, and threatened Yanakovych and his supporters away. They have a history of threatening politicians. This was at gunpoint. If you support the Kiev overthrow then yes. In Crimea at least they had a vote. Now I'm not saying Ukranians don't have the right. If Russia annexed the whole of Ukraine, this would not be legal or just, but it would however be the nearest point in which Russia would be even close to on-par with the crime that already occurred. Actually still no because this wasn't fully devoid of a vote. This junta and those who supported them stole the ENTIRE country of Ukraine. If Crimea was stolen, then that is a PART of Ukraine being stolen. Of course all sides use propaganda. We knew there was a huge contingent of these nazis among the rebel army. Russia insisted that they NOT be allowed to overthrow the government. It was the West that insisted and made it happen. And you are blaming Russia as the ones who want the nazis? They're the only ones trying to NOT let them take over! And if Russia want the destruction of EU, if that's the case, it is moot, because they aren't the ones trying to destroy it. They haven't made such an act. Incidentally I would NOT use a Litwin thread to gain a bearing. John McCain himself travelled to Kiev for the purpose of rabble-rousing and encouraging the overthrow. That's direct involvement which Russia never did quite interefere until after the overthrow. Kerry and Obama and Cameron and Hague etc. were all constantly at the podium to encourage a regime change and condemn Yanakovych. Many of these "protestor" rebels reported being paid off. The USA have a long history of hiring revolutionaries all over the world. The USA now keep insisting on this new government's legitimacy and sovereign control over all territories. They have already given billions to this cause and that is proven. The USA have been, as conclusively proven, behind this at every stage. What I'm saying is, what makes a referendum to sucede legitimate? Or, one day they had a voted in president, and the next they had a new government they never voted for. Now if they don't like their new government, what, if any recourse DO they have? If not a referendum, then what? They should be forced to submit to rule outside the social contract and in violation of the Constitution in force at the time? That's what it seems like. This government is legitimate so you'd better kiss their feet. As for a normal election. This always comes up after these regime changes. They have a democracy and a voted-in government. Then they destroy that, replace with interem juntas, then go on and on about how they need to have a vote of the people!! It's like HELLO, you HAD a vote of the people! Anybody who supports a violent takeover needs to shut up about anything related to "the will of the people" or "self determination" etc. unless it's to tell the truth and admit they don't support it. They always SAY they represent the people, but that's nonsense. How could you know if the people want an overthrow or not, as there was no vote! That's the point of a vote! Kiev would have had a vote a year later. It was coming up? So why not just vote them out? Because coup de'tas are for when you DON'T have the votes and the will of the populace but want to usurp anyway. I'm not on the side of Russia, except to point out the truth that they do indeed have the moral high ground over Kiev and friends. That's not to say they are moral, as none of the grounds are all that high. ANYTHING Russia get accused of in this has been done WAY worse by the other side. I am on the side of self-determination. If they voted themselves to be Russian, then fair dues. At least they got a choice. We need to STOP supporting the overthrow of elected governments. THAT is what I hate. I don't do this for love of Russia. I do this for the necessity of protecting people and their self-determination. People need to stand up for people in this worldwide war on democracy. I also believe this path will destroy the USA. I love my country, which is why I want them to stop what will actually destroy the USA. I'm happy that SOMEBODY is standing up against that agenda.
These Kiev Government is begging EU and USA for help, they have no army and they do not know what to do next. Perhaps, they expected EU will to bomb Russia and they somehow would get out of the trouble unscathed. These people will run away.
