The "Trinity" explained

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by bricklayer, May 1, 2016.

  1. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Material is not necessary; it exists contingently. We know this because it is subject to change.

    Matter is that with mass.
    Space is position relative to matter.
    Time is the progressive sequential relative positions of matter.
    Energy is material change.

    Space, time and energy only actually exist relative to matter. This is known as matter's "special relativity".
     
  2. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    ... is also he great Trinity of Reality,... Energy, Matter, and Space/time.
     
  3. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    I'm sorry, but your explanation is not Biblically sound.
     
  4. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    The Truth will strike you down,... as you reach an age when death is coming,... soon.
     
  5. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is an indispensable distinction, even when there's no difference, between what is implied and what is inferred. Those who do not recognize that distinction can claim to base their theology upon what is implied in the bible. They, therefore, have no need to defend the reasonableness of their theology because they are not the ones making the implication. This has led to some wildly unreasonable theologies. Popular among them today is the idea that God "sovereignly subjects" Himself to human volition.

    The bible is truth, but the bible proves nothing. Truth is an implication; proof is an inference. Truth is necessary; it is what it is. Proof is the product of the exclusion process wherein doubt is removed by testing. Given the variety of inferences taken from the bible, inferences from the bible are statistically less likely to be what is inferred than inferences taken from any other literary source.

    Any portion of scripture is good for instruction, but no portion of scripture is good for conclusion. Conclusions should only be drawn from the full counsel of God's revelation.
     
  6. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    You have said a mouth full of stuff but is totally irrelevant to what the scriptures tells us about the oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Bible is not really as compacted as most make it.
     
  7. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    Here is a Biblically grounded explanation of the Trinity.

    A simple way to understand the Trinity

    The Spirit of God

    The Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit is God in action; whenever the Holy Spirit is mentioned, it means that God is doing something….God would not be God if He could not act.

    Here are some examples

    1
    Genesis 1:1-2 (KJV)
    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    2
    Numbers 24:2 (ASV)
    2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.

    3
    1 Chronicles 12:18 (ASV)
    18 Then the Spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the thirty, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be unto thee, and peace be to thy helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.

    4
    Matthew 3:16 (ASV)
    16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;

    5
    Matthew 12:28 (ASV)
    28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.


    6
    Luke 1:35 (ASV)
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

    7
    Luke 1:35 (NKJV)
    35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.


    The Word

    The Word, who became Jesus, was and is the mind and utterance of God as you will see from the Greek below. This is why Jesus is God, because the mind of God is what God is…its God’s identity. God could not be God if He could not think and speak/utter.

    John 1:1-4, 14 (ASV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

    Jesus was God with us

    Matthew 1:23 (KJV)
    23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


    Notice that in John 1:3 it says all things were made by Him (the Word) and in Genesis 1:1 it says God created the heaven and the earth. To critics of the Bible this may seem to be a contradiction, but these verses only adds to the fact of what Jesus said that He and the Father are one. When Jesus does something it is the Father that is doing and when the Father is doing, it is the Holy Spirit that is doing, because they are one God. Also, there is no scripture that tells us that Jesus cease to be God when He became human; all that happened is the He added humanity to His divinity. In fact the scripture tells us that that one of His name is Immanuel.

    Isaiah 7:14 (ESV)
    14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Immanuel
    Hebrew Word: ‏אֵל‎
    Transliteration: ēl
    Phonetic Pronunciation: ale
    Root: shortened from <H352>, Greek <G2241> and <G1664>
    Cross Reference: TWOT - 93a
    Part of Speech: n m
    Vine's Words: God



    shortened from <H352> ('ayil); strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity) :- God (god), × goodly, × great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in &#8220;-el.&#8221;

    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    Word:
    Greek Word: &#955;&#8057;&#947;&#959;&#962;
    Transliteration: logos
    Phonetic Pronunciation: log'-os
    Root: from <G3004>
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 4:69,505
    Part of Speech: n m
    Vine's Words: Account, Cause, Communicate, Communication, Intent, Matter, Matters, Question, Questioning, Reason, Report, Saying, Show (Noun), Speech, Talk, Things, Treatise, Utterance, Word



    from <G3004> (lego); something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty or motive; by extension a computation; specially (with the art. in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) :- account, cause, communication, × concerning, doctrine, fame, × have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, × speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
    Quote from Holman Treasury of key Bible words
    (The) Word
    ________________________________________
    See also: Word (Hebrew) and Word (Greek)
    Greek expression: ho logos
    Pronunciation: haw; LAW gawss
    Strong&#8217;s Number: <G3056>

    In the opening verse of John&#8217;s Gospel, he named the Son of God &#8220;the Word.&#8221; As &#8220;the Word,&#8221; the Son of God fully conveys and communicates God. The Greek term is logos; it was used in two ways by the Greeks. &#8220;The word&#8221; might be thought of as remaining within a person, when it denoted his or her &#8220;thought or reason.&#8221; Or it might refer to &#8220;the word&#8221; going forth from a person, when it denoted &#8220;the expression of his or her thought&#8221;&#8212;such as speech. As a philosophical term, the logos denoted the &#8220;principle of the universe,&#8221; even the creative energy that generated the universe. In both the Jewish conception and the Greek, the logos was associated with the idea of beginnings&#8212;the world began through the origination and instrumentality of &#8220;the Word.&#8221; This is seen in Genesis 1:3 where the expression &#8220;God said&#8221; is used again and again.

    John may have had these ideas about &#8220;the word&#8221; in mind, but most likely he originated a new term to identify the Son of God as the divine expression in human form (John 1:14). He is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15), the express image of God&#8217;s substance (Heb. 1:3). In the Godhead, the Son not only reveals God, but also reveals the reality of God, which is a central theme throughout John&#8217;s Gospel. John used a similar title in his first epistle: &#8220;the Word of life&#8221; (1 John 1:1-3). And in Revelation 19:11-16, Jesus is presented as the King of kings and Lord of lords, who has a name on Him: &#8220;the Word of God.&#8221;

    Before coming to earth, &#8220;the Word&#8221; lived in the beginning with God and was Himself God. This is a paradox beyond explanation: how can one be with God and yet also be God? What we gather from the first verse is that &#8220;the Word,&#8221; who is both the Son of God and God, lived in face-to-face fellowship with God His Father. The last verse of the prologue (John 1:18 ) tells us that the Son was in the bosom of the Father. In Jesus&#8217; intercessory prayer (John 17) He revealed that the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world. We cannot imagine the extent of their union and communion.

    KEY VERSES
    ________________________________________
    John 1:1; 1 John 1:1; Revelation 19:13
    &#8220;The Word&#8217;s&#8221; first act was to work with God in creating the universe. His second great act was to come to men as the light of life. The essential nature of &#8220;the Word&#8221; is &#8220;life&#8221; (Greek, z&#333;&#275;), and this life gives light to people who live in darkness. The divine life resided in &#8220;the Word,&#8221; and He made it available to all who believe in Him.
    &#8212; Holman Treasury of Key Bible Words


    Jesus said that He issued from God; If Jesus is, or was a separate being from God He would not use this word. This was not simply a departing from the Father&#8217;s as one would if you were standing in the presence of another person, then departing&#8230;..when you do that it would not be said that you issue or issued from that person. Jesus issued from God, like water coming from a tap or pipe. Jesus issued from God because He is the mind and utterance of God&#8230;.that&#8217;s why He is referred to as the word in John.

    John 16:27-28 (KJV)
    27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    Came out/ came forth:
    Greek Word: &#7952;&#958;&#8051;&#961;&#967;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;
    Transliteration: exerchomai
    Phonetic Pronunciation: ex-er'-khom-ahee
    Root: from <G1537> and <G2064>
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:678,257
    Part of Speech: v
    Vine's Words: Come, Came, Depart, Get, Got, Gotten, Proceed



    from <G1537> (ek) and <G2064> (erchomai); to issue (literal or figurative) :- come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    Jesus and His Father are one

    John 10:30 (ASV)
    30 I and the Father are one.

    One:
    Greek Word: &#949;&#7991;&#962;
    Transliteration: heis
    Phonetic Pronunciation: hice
    Root: (including the neuter [etc.] hen)
    Cross Reference: TDNT - 2:434,214
    Part of Speech: numeral
    Vine's Words: One, Other



    (including the neuter [etc.] hen); a primary numeral; one :- a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also <G1527> (heis kath' heis), <G3367> (medeis), <G3391> (mia), <G3762> (oudeis).

    Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

    Jesus said He was in heaven though He was on the earth

    John 3:13 (KJV)
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Jesus was able to say this because as He said, &#8220;I and the Father are one.&#8221; What Jesus is saying is that He and the Father is the same God.

    But at the same time, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are also distinct.

    John 1:1-2, 14 (ASV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    Matthew 3:17 (ASV)
    17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    John 16:13-14 (ASV)
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you.


    God made mankind in His image

    When God said let us make man in our image, it was God the Father who was doing the uttering, just as you or I would utter something. Our utterance, which is simply our thoughts being heard, is the person. Without your mind you will not be you&#8230;.your mind is your identity. This is why we are in the image of God. When you understand truly what is meant when God said, &#8220;let is make man in our image&#8221;, then the Trinity will not seem like a mystery.

    Genesis 1:26 (ASV)
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    We are in the image of God because we can think and speak; we can act or take action to do what we have in our thoughts. And we are like God because out thoughts are subjected to us the one doing the uttering and doing.

    So in a sense we are a trinity, mind, body and spirit.
     
  8. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My explanation of the trinity is biblical. It does not violate God's "oneness".
     
  9. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    Nothing that you have said is Biblical.....in fact, you have provided not even one scripture to back it up.
     
  10. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    John 14:6 Jesus said to them, "I am The Truth, and the way and the life," thereafter...

    Hence, his father MUST,... by definition,... be Reality.
     
  11. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    Reality was created by God, but I don't know what you mean by his father MUST,... by definition,... be Reality. Do you even know what that means? But anyway, your explanation about the Trinity is still off based, because it's based on your idea, not what the Bible tells us it is. This is why in your explanation you provided no scriptures along the way to back it up.
     
  12. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The bible proves nothing.
     
  13. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    LOL That's something a fool would say in the face of the truth.
     
  14. cupid dave

    cupid dave Well-Known Member

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    Reality IS our only God.

    Reality gives birth to Truth as it unfolds frame by frame.
    Truth is the son of Reality,... and is the image of Reality:


    Gen. 1:26 And God, (i.e.; Reality), said Let us, (i.e.; Truth and Reality, both), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution: [Gen 5:2]),.. Let us make man (capable of understanding Reality through the use of Truth), IN OUR IMAGE, (Reality and Truth): and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
     
  15. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    frustrating, but sometimes entertaining - when a simple question obliging a yes or no answer (or words to that effect) are met with paragraphs of fruity prose. it appears the people prosing feel that if enough words, or the right kind , are said in a particular sort of way, it's a reasonable substitute for evidence. of course these are the same people who refuse to accept fruity prose as evidence regarding all other gods. so they won't accept it themselves, but demand we do. as I said, entertaining.
     
  16. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    The Greek word that is translated God does not mean reality......what you are doing is twisting the scriptures to support what you believe.
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Jesus is not "God". At least not according to all the leaders of the Church for the first 200 years and for most for 100 years more.

    Your interpretation of John is based on a flawed understanding of the term "Logos"

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html




    John was writing to a Greek audience after the turn of the first century when Christian doctrine was evolving and he wanted use terminology that this audience would understand to make Christianity more appealing to this audience.

    John is a Pauline/Hellenistic fusion work and in this way it differs significantly from Mark and Matt.

    What then did the term "Logos" when used in a religious context mean to this audience ?

    As is the case with words, their meaning in the real world can be complex.

    http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

    To the Greeks at the time "Logos" when used in a religious context was the cosmic mediator between God and man.

    Passages attributed to Jesus such as "I am the Truth" "I am the way" now make complete sense.

    Jesus is the emissary between God and Man. Jesus always refers to "The Father" as a personage other than himself. His mission is to bring the message of God to mankind and to serve as an intermediary between God and man.

    Just as with Justin Martyr (100 AD to 165 AD) none of the Church fathers of that time believe Jesus is "GOD". They all believe Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

    Tertullian is the first to express the use the Trinity concept -around 200 AD. The Church today still calls his views heretical.

    Although the Trinity doctrine is starting to take shape in the mid 3rd century. Pope Dionysius 265 AD is still expressing subordinationist views (Jesus is subordinate to the Father) a bunch more of the early Church fathers are on this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subordinationism

    Probably the most influential of all subordinationists was Origen. A prolific teacher and writer. Dionysius of Alexandria was his student.

    http://www.dacb.org/stories/egypt/origen_.html

    Moral of this long story - Well into the 3rd century, Jesus was NOT God.

    It is true that the doctrine was evolving and morphing closer to what we know today as the "Trinity" however, this was a function of religious doctrinal necessity rather than anything in the Bible.

    They believed Jesus was divine. They believed God was Divine. They believed these were separate.
    At the same time they were devoted monotheists and could not accept the idea of having two Gods.

    The move towards the modern Trinity doctrine is little more than and attempt of the human mind to reconcile this contradiction over time.

    What resulted is an incoherent mess.
     
  18. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    You're talking about the people Jesus prophesied about that would be deceived and deceiving others.

    Matthew 24:5 (ESV)
    5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.

    The verse above shows that Jesus warned His disciples that many false believers going out and deceiving many.



    There is no such thing in the Bible as Christianity evolving.....what is it evolving from?


    One of the problem is, you are religious, but God and His word is not. God has no religion, that's why Jesus NEVER preached religion. Religious people(the Pharisees and the Sadducees for example) was one of the problems Jesus had to deal with.


    Obviously, you fail to grasp the context in which John 1:1 was written. The Word, whom became flesh, was the Word before man was even made, so how could John have meant that the word Word means mediator? There is a word in the Greek for that, and it is mesit&#275;s - a go-between, which John didn't use in John 1.

    Religion is man-made; God didn't give man a religion in the Garden of Eden.....He gave man a government....a kingdom. So we are not on the same page at all....it's as if we are speaking two different languages that has no similarities or came from the same root.

    The Bible is not a complex and difficult book to understand, excepting when individuals like yourself start to explain it.....you make people more confused afterwards than before you speak.....I'm not surprised why some people become skeptical and disbelieving, because of people like yourself.

    You're so filled with philosophy, which the Bible warned us about that the simplicity of the Bible shoots right over your head without you even seeing it.

    That's the roll Jesus occupied after He was sent by the Father, but before that, He was the Word; the utterance/mind of the One who uttered, which is the Father. Jesus was the Son of God before He became flesh, because issued out of the Father.

    If Jesus wasn't God, He sure failed to correct Thomas when he called Jesus His Lord and God.

    John 20:28-29 (ASV)
    28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    Jesus was the God in the Old Testament; it was He who lead the House of Israel out of Egypt, spoke to the prophets, was the same one in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve sinned....it was the same Word, whom put on flesh, that created everything.


    I don't follow what you called "Church fathers"......they are the same ones as I said, that have deceived the masses.....when you follow the blind, they will lead to into a ditch, as Jesus said.
     
  19. bricklayer

    bricklayer Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The bible is truth, but truth is an implication. Proof is an inference. Proof is the product of the exclusion process wherein doubt is removed by testing.
    The bible is only proof to the extent that one's inferences have been tested.

    Making no distinction between one's inferences an God's implication is the height of pride.
     
  20. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    That is your definition based on your philosophy it's not supported in the Bible. Truth is truth, plain and simple, but inference is not truth.....you have your definitions wrong.
     
  21. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The false believers would be those who invented the Trinity Doctrine and the leaders of the Catholic Church after Constantine.
    The false believers would be the Fundamentalists of our time.

    Of course the beliefs of Christianity evolved. The beliefs changed over time.


    This has nothing to do with the author of John's usage of the term Logos. The problem is that you are going into denial mode by avoiding subject matter that challenges or conflicts with your belief.




    Everything I posted came from well documented sources. Do not blame me that they disagree with your unsupported misconceptions.

    Religion is man-made; God didn't give man a religion in the Garden of Eden.....He gave man a government....a kingdom. So we are not on the same page at all....it's as if we are speaking two different languages that has no similarities or came from the same root.

    What a joke. You completely fail to address any of the arguments I put forth or the source material presented. You then stand on a soap box and all you have to offer is "you did cant explain it... you cant explain it" and say nothing about what topic you are even referring to.

    Yes .. God forbid one use logic and reason. Where does the Bible warn against this.

    You have not refuted any of my comments nor given any comments of your own in relation to the topic.

    Your commentary is nothing but Ad Hom. How pathetic.

    The foundation for your belief is sand. Even the slightest wave can knock it over and send you running for the hills in a fit of denial.

    You are so busy trying to fit the Bible into man made doctrine that you have missed the message of Jesus.
     
  22. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    The Bible speaks of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, how much did you count, is that three or not?



    Evolved from what? What belief that it has evolved from and by whose authority or source?



    The word Logos means utterance/mind/mental faculty plane and simple. Not only does the scriptures tells us that Jesus is the Word, but that He is God and that everything was made/created by the Word.

    John 1:1-4 (ASV)
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.




    Context is important and how a word is used is important when one is reading. The word Great has all sorts of meaning, but when put in a sentence, it will only mean what the writer intends it to mean.




    1 Corinthians 1:22-25 (MontgomeryNT)
    22 Jews continue to ask for miracles and Greeks are ever wanting philosophy,
    23 but we come preaching a crucified Messiah - to Jews a stumbling- block, to Greeks foolishness,
    24 but to those who are the called, whether Jews or Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.
    25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


    1 Corinthians 1:27 (MontgomeryNT)
    27 No, God has chosen the world’s folly to confound its philosophy; and the world’s weakness to confound its strength.

    1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (MontgomeryNT)
    1 And when I came to you, brothers, I came not to proclaim God’s great secret purpose in fine language of philosophy;
    2 for I determined to know nothing, while among you, but Jesus as Christ, and him a crucified Christ.
    3 In weakness and fear and great trembling came I among you.
    4 My message and my preaching were not in the persuasive language of philosophy, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power;
    5 in order that your faith should rest, not on human philosophy, but on the power of God.



    1 Corinthians 3:18-19 (MontgomeryNT)
    18

    Let no one deceive himself. If any one of you supposes that he is wise in the philosophy of the present age, let him become foolish, so that he may be wise.
    19 For the philosophy of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. It is written, He snares the wise in their own craftiness,


    Colossians 2:8 (ASV)
    8 Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:
     
  23. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Do you have any understanding of what the Trinity doctrine is ? The debate is not about whether or not there are 3 different entities.

    The debate is about the nature of the three entities - Whether Jesus is God (aka God of Abraham).

    Are you truly this lost or is this another denial via avoidance response ?
    The early Christians did not believe Jesus was God, nor did the disciples or Paul. Jesus does not refer to himself as God, always referring to God as someone other than himself.



    I gave you what the term "logos" meant to Christians living at the time of John. You are correct that the Author of John puts Jesus with God at the time of Creation in using the term "logos".

    This is an evolution of thinking from earlier Gospels - Mark, Matt.

    In Mark Jesus is made divine at his Baptism. There is no virgin birth and no physical resurrection - Jesus wandering around in the flesh after death.

    In Matt Jesus is made divine at birth (Immaculate Conception).

    The divinity of Jesus evolves with time.

    In John, Jesus is pre-existent with God a further evolution in his divinity.

    200 years later at the council of Nicea, Jesus is turned into God (God of Abraham).






    There is much speculation by religious scholars on what John meant. Understanding what the word "Logos" meant to the people of the time is critical and you are still seemingly unable to figure that out so you have far to go.




    Pauline Gibberish. Yet another reason to disregard Paul. Other than the fact that he did not know Jesus, knew almost nothing about the life of Jesus, had very little association with the Chruch of Jerusalem and had a doctrine that was at odds with the Church of Jerusalem (Founded by the disciples and led by James- brother of Jesus)

    Paul's teachings contradict the teachings of Jesus. James, leader of the Church of Jerusalem, called people who believed in Paul's "Salvation by faith alone doctrine" fools.
     
  24. Woolley

    Woolley Well-Known Member

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    So let me fully grasp the Trinity. First, God existed prior to anything including the universe. God was alone for all intents and purposes living in some other state independent of natural law as we know it. God existed like this for all eternity but since God had not yet invented the universe, time did not exist. So matter, energy, time, gravity, light, space nothing existed but God. We do not know what God is made of, have no idea what dimension he resides in, no clue about his existence, we know nothing about God but for what mankind has written down or believed.

    Then, he creates the universe and eventually, man. Man lives alone in a vast universe of 200 billion galaxies each of which is moving away from each other because space itself is expanding in between them. We are becoming more and more alone as this expansion continues. In all the billions of galaxies, the trillions of stars and very likely, even more planets, we are alone.

    As man descends through the ages crossing almost 200,000 years, God decides at about 197,000 years into this span to finally tell a bunch of Jews what he wants. He destroys most of mankind in a flood, then mankind regroups, the animals disperse to every corner of the globe returning from Turkey to the nether parts of the globe. A few thousand years later, after God has smite the heathens with his mighty vengeance, ignored millions that do not live in the Middle East, God decides to create a son. How he does this is a mystery because the very term "son" is a human artifact defined by our ability to procreate. God impregnates a virgin and then his son goes about his life until maturity. At that point, Jesus performs miracles, preaches a new gospel and reaffirms Gods true intent because Gods previous advice in the OT was incomplete. God allows Jesus to be crucified then brings him into heaven wherever that is, none of us know. Then a couple hundred years go by and his followers come up with the idea of a Holy Spirit. None of us know what it is, is it God or his soul running around doing stuff for God? No one knows but clever men come up with clever ways of explaining it. The more objections arise, the more clever the rebuttals. Then, this religion becomes the law of the land enforced by the world's most powerful empire and naysayers are killed or exiled. Millions upon millions of people all across the world are spared this agony until later. Then as technology improves, this same movement crosses oceans, rides by camels, takes long treks across thousands of miles and forces this new movement upon the millions they find living without this wonderful news. If they object, they are killed or forced into compliance.

    Did I miss anything?
     
  25. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Donor

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    One could also say that it is an effort to reconcile contradictory scriptures from different authors with different ideas that were brought together in biblical canon.
     

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