What will right-wingers with no health insurance do now?

You said " Every epidemic, pandemic, etc. the world has ever known ended without universal testing."
I responded: "No epidemic has been as widespread as this one."

That's how I responded to your argument against universal testing.

Or course I was referring to flu pandemics in the U.S. And though I was actually thinking about the speed at which it spread, I declare that my statement was inaccurate. No excuses!

Both our statements are inaccurate.

In my favor I can only say that mine was just wrong. Yours is wrong and idiotic.

Again: My sig says that I research what I write. Not that I don't make mistakes. But when I do make a mistakes, I will always acknowledge the fact once it is demonstrated to me with facts. And BTW, I know that my statement (like yours) was inaccurate because of my research. Because you, even now, have produced... absolutely nothing! to support your claims. So, as far as I know, it might have just been a coincidence that you pointed out an error.

Now.... with that out of the way.... Looks like you at least stopped denying (with no references) that my claim (with references) that there were not enough coronavirus tests. So that's progress. Now we're starting to get there. Not nearly enough yet, but much closer.

And apropos universal testing. Guess what? Looks like my proposal of universal testing might in fact,

https://www.ft.com/content/0dba7ea8-6713-11ea-800d-da70cff6e4d3

And, as I was writing this, I heard on TV they were doing the same in Iceland. Haven't confirmed it on my own through research though....

So waddaya know. Despite what... some scientist "said" on your city Health Department page, whatever that was that led you and him to believe that this was not a sensible position.... Always keep in mind Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

 

For those who have personal insurances or corporate partnered insurances, no problem it's covered,
but for the poor rural folks who are republicans who does not have an insurance coverage, they only have to pray fervently and solemnly that they will not have the symptoms or even the virus itself.

 

True statement by me. Common sense.

Untrue. Unsubstantiated even now. Unsubstantiated by a guy that says not doing so makes one an unserious poster. You are a class act. LOL

Thanks for calling my statements of fact you can’t disprove idiotic. Your hole is getting deeper and deeper.

No coincidence. Your errors are so amateurish it isn’t difficult to spot or correct them. I gave you at least two epidemics that were more widespread. That is support of my claim. If you want to claim my statements of fact aren’t true you better show some evidence.

I gave you a solid reference that tests were not short in my state. It’s a fact. It was not a health department page. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

Again, since you are either forgetful or being disingenuous here is the link I supplied you claim I didn’t provide.
http://www.kmaland.com/news/nebrask...cle_9717fb3a-63df-11ea-829a-43cd6641f2c5.html
And the pull quote from the Nebraska Public Health Laboratory director.

Your link violates forum rules. I’m shocked.

 

First off yup. We have it in writting i have more of a right to own a gun than you have to healthcare.


Now, i had no insurance but had to go to the emergency room and spent 3 days in thr hospital.. i pay 230 a month, far less than the 409 quoted earlier for health insurance..


But wait if healthcare is a human right how could anyone seeking it be a freeloader.
If it's a right the care is owed to them.
You can't be a freeloader simply for getting what's owed to you..

Make up your mind which is it?

 

Wrong! The AIDS Epidemic, for example, has not "ended". But any hint of "common sense" on your part really goes out the window when we realize that you use that to argue against universal testing. That's when your statement becomes, not only wrong, but idiotic. As if millions who died in other epidemics (when the world was less populated), some of which lasted for many years, were not reason enough to consider the possibility. Considering the damage this pandemic has done in just the last month, using "oh... it will end... they always end" as some sort of argument is... well...I don't have to say it.... any reader would know what it is.

Tip from the pros: Responding to a paragraph before reading the context never looks you look smart.

And, of course, you thought that this whole discussion was about your state, right?

What a sorry excuse!

 

Still not going to back up any of your false claims? Just going to spin your errors and resort to ad hominem. You are predictable.

None of your posts “looks you look smart”.

I brought up my State because you kept claiming people weren’t being tested because there weren’t sufficient tests. People weren’t being tested in many places because there wasn’t a need for them to be tested. There were plenty of unused tests and no health professionals were recommending testing everyone who wanted a test.

This whole discussion started because your thread opening post called out right wingers. My state is full of them. One of the premier institutions dealing with this epidemic is paid for by a lot of people you call out in your OP. Of course I’m going to point out the fact we were much better prepared than other states when you make false claims about tests not being available.

Obviously I don’t think the whole discussion is about my state. That’s why I posted previously it’s about correcting your grievous errors. The discussion for you appears to be denigrating people who are responsible for themselves. For me it’s about keeping you from spreading misinformation.

 

Plenty of people can "afford" health insurance because it is provided for them free of charge via Obamacare or Medicaid, and yet they still show up at the emergency room for non-ER cases. Why? Because they don't have to pay for it either way. Instead of focusing your disdain on conservatives who decide against insurance, why not complain about people to whom American taxpayers GIVE health insurance and then show up at the ER anyway?

One of the big myths of Obamacare was that if we only gave lower-income people health insurance they wouldn't have to use the expensive ER. And yet, ER visits have gone UP since Obamacare. Why? Because it's more convenient to go to the ER a mile away than to drive 20 miles to the Urgent Care Center in one's network, and if you're poor, someone else pays either way. But middle-income people make the drive because they are mindful of the cost; the lower income, to whom we provide it for free, just do what's easiest.

Solution: Have a shuttle driver sitting in the parking lot of the ER, ready to transport non-ER poor people to the Urgent Care Center. It could make the run once an hour, and we could pay the drivers $20/hr. For $500 a day, we could save a fortune in ER expenses. And the rule would be that if you are deemed to have a non-emergency and insist on being seen in the ER anyway (because poor people's Medicaid would cover it), there is a mandatory $50 charge. That would incentivize lower-income people getting health care provided other people's money to exercise a little care about costs.

 

As a law enacted by the Supreme Court, yes. As a Human Right, no. Anyway, this looks like a discussion that has been dealt with in other threads, and off topic in this one.

You're talking about the $409 that individuals with no family who make over $50 K pay for insurance? Your response signals lack of foresight. You don't factor in ever being in the same situation again (those $230 a month tend to accumulate before they go down), or ever having a family, or ever being in an accident or having a health condition that require treatment in the 6 or even 7 figure range for those who don't have insurance. That lack of foresight on the right is what has our healthcare system in one heck of a mess.

But no matter what anecdote you or I bring, the fact is that the system is unattainable. It's too costly, in general. And in no small part because of people who say they're going to pay for their healthcare. And, in the end, they don't. Because it is a statistical fact that most will reach the point in which they can't.... so they don't. They get the rest of us to pay, even though they had the ability to contribute.

Exactly!!!!

That's the point. If the right doesn't believe it's a right then, from their perspective, not paying for it would make them freeloaders.

See? It wasn't that difficult.

 

You actually need me to prove to you that the AIDS epidemic has not ended? Or that millions died in other epidemics, some of which lasted for years? Those are the only claims I made on the post you quoted. Which of them do you need me to back up?

We are doubling the number of infected... I believe it's every 2 or 3 days, at this point. In large part because they are tested now, but not when we started this discussion. They were not tested because of ... all together now.... lack of tests available! These are people who didn't know they were sick. And, therefore, many of them were not isolated and were instead spreading the disease.

And you claim ... let me verify, because this is so absurd it defies comprehension that somebody would say something like this...

You really said ".... because there wasn't a need for them to be tested".

Wow! You actually did say that!

And if you don't see the absurdity of your statement, you won't understand the fact that being so far behind other countries in testing means that we haven't even comprehended the extense of the disease in this country. Which, I believe, would be a necessary step if we expect to control it.

I'm talking about people who need tests. Pay attention!

I have no idea what state you live in. But this discussion is not about your state. It's about the country.

And now, the same is happening because Trump drags his feet to invoke the Defense Production Act. Hospitals are running out of supplies. Including swabs to do the testing. What the hell is the orange idiot doing?

This is how you correct an error: You show the error, provide the correct information, and then show a reference to support that information. You didn't do that. You just pointed out everything you didn't like as "error". Throwing crap at the wall, hoping some of it would stick. One of those turned out to actually be incorrect. But you didn't correct it. Because you never did the above. I corrected it.

 

They're idiots! Do you know any on this forum? Point me to them and I'll rant until their heads turn blue and they really have to go to the ER.

Otherwise, I'll rant against those who I know (because they have said so) don't consider healthcare a "right", refuse to pay for insurance and, knowingly or unknowingly, will rely on the rest of us to pay for their healthcare when they need it.

BTW, I don't own the "ranting rights" on this forum. If you believe your ranting will reach somebody engaged in that behavior, open a thread. It's not that difficult.

Sounds great! I'd start by selling it to the Insurance companies.

 

We don't believe it's a right because it simply common sense that it is not.

You just want it really bad and call it a right because you want it.

You absolutely have the right to buy health care, in the exact same way i have the right to buy a gun. If i cannot afford a gun i don't get one.. too bad there aren't thousands of charities willing to pay for my gun, but there are to help you pay your medical bills.

 

[QUOTE="Golem


[/QUOTE] Sounds great! I'd start by selling it to the Insurance companies.[/QUOTE]
(I still can't get the quoting stuff, so I've bolded your comment.


So, to recap, you think my idea is a good one: to set up a system that would transport low-income people (who get all their care for free, even at ERs) to an Urgent Care facility, and if they don't want to use the shuttle and instead use the expensive ER for a non-ER situation, would have to pay $50. (Of course, $50 is a drop in the bucket to what the low-income person would actually cost American taxpayers; it's meant as an incentive to take the free shuttle.)

But why do you say you'd sell it to the insurance companies? The lower-income person on free insurance would have to pay the $50; not the insurance company. Otherwise, where's their incentive to be mindful of the costs they are dumping on other people? (

 

The California governor, with some exceptions, has shut down the economy in the Golden State. Yesterday, Gov. Gavin Newsom announced extraordinary measures directing all Californians to stay at home amid the coronavirus outbreak. Contra Costa County on Friday announced its first death related to the virus.

The person was in their 70s, had an underlying medical condition and had recently traveled overseas, officials said. The patient died Thursday in an undisclosed hospital, becoming the 20th person to die of the virus in California with a population of 40 million.

Politicians are going nuts.

 

Another important factor is that if you are otherwise healthy, even a senior, your odds of recovery are greater than 99%.
https://hotair.com/archives/allahpu...eople-died-coronavirus-preexisting-condition/

 

I’d be pleasantly surprised if you successfully back up any of your claims. You pick. Just don’t get upset if your source contradicts you like the last time. Lol

You claimed this is the most widespread epidemic. That’s verifiably false. Now you are bringing up examples that demonstrate the ridiculous nature of that claim. You are now on record as switching positions in the middle of a debate. That’s nuts.

That’s correct. In my state the criteria for testing was the same as in South Korea. They aren’t testing people who don’t need testing and neither did my state. We had more than enough tests to test anyone South Korea or anyone else would test. I will continue to say it because it’s true and I’ve backed it up with the facts from one of the leading healthcare officials in my state. He’s also one of the most qualified individuals on earth to comment on who should be tested and who shouldn’t.

My statement is just a fact Golem. You don’t have to like it but it’s just a fact. My state wasn’t behind. We were testing every individual based on the same criteria as South Korea whom YOU cited as being successful.

Of course. That’s been my position from the beginning. Those that need testing in my area have been tested. It’s not complicated.

This may come as a surprise to you, but my state is part of the country. LOL. That’s why I’m not letting you get away with the false premise that the whole country was short of testing. Like I said before. My state invested in infrastructure that is paying off locally and benefiting you as well. I’m sorry your state didn’t. Not my problem.

I don’t think you are in a great position to be calling anyone an idiot.

Your dodging and twisting and distracting are noted and do provide me with entertainment value.

You haven’t shown anything I’ve said to be in error. I’ve provided backing for everything I’ve called you out on. You are even changing positions now in the middle of debate. It’s hilarious.

 

There are now more than 21,000 cases that have been confirmed in the United States. That is to be expected. As the U.S. tests more, it is logical to expect more cases. It is illogical to assume the increasing number is all due to increasing number of cases.

Put a different way, there are 21,000 cases of the common cold caused by a new virus. That is not at all unusual.

In a nation of 327 million, there have been 288 deaths caused by complications of the common cold from the coronavirus in three months, most are the elderly with underlying conditions and in nursing homes or other facilities

Again, that number is not at all unusual. In fact, it is quite low.

 

I am going to go out on limb here and offer a really crazy idea.

Could the cure be worse than the disease in a very real sense. Think about it. Dad and mom have lost their jobs. Bills will go unpaid, most likely for months. The children are underfoot because of school closures. The average family has permanently lost thousands of dollars in their retirement savings and investments. It will take years to get back where they were a few weeks ago, if they get it back. They can't go anywhere. They are ordered by politicians to stay home and all sports are shut down. No NBA or NHL championships. No March madness. No Masters, and all golf leagues are cancelled. The start of the baseball season has been postponed.

Will this cause an increase in stress? Of course, and in a major sense. It is reasonable to assume the murder rate and the suicide rate will go up, as people go nuts and frustrated, unable to correct the many concerns they have or find relief in leisure activities. The death toll from covid-19 is quite small in the U.S., 288 in three months.

The suicide and murder rates are already high in the U.S. It is reasonable to assume that there will be a sharp increase in those numbers caused by the solutions the politicians have come up with regarding the coronavirus.

Crazy, huh?

 

I always back up my claims when debating with a serious poster.

Really? You are actually questioning that AIDS epidemic has not ended? I mean, you didn't correct it. And now you're challenging me to back it up!

Wow! This is like the.... third or fourth post in a row that you keep gloating about that error that I admitted and corrected. Looks like you're really proud. That's great. Now you have a story to tell to your grand-children. Don't omit the fact about you never correcting yours about the AIDS epidemic being "over", though. Or course you're going to omit it anyway!

.

There is nobody of consequence who denies that there are people who are not being tested because of lack of tests.

Maybe Trump... but nobody takes what he says about this seriously anymore. I don't see you on a different boat.

My house is part of this country too. And, following your logic, since there are no cases of coronavirus, your "reasoning" would conclude that... there is no epidemic in this country.

Now that we know that your arguments are not serious, maybe we can find out if at least their funny.

That is hilarious! BTW, my "premise" is not that the whole country was short of testing. It's that the country is short of testing. If you're going to challenge things that

Your state... where the world ends.

It most certainly is your problem. You're just not informed enough to know it.

Yeah, I know.... forum rules don't allow me to. You can take a sigh of relief.

Remember what I said: I always back up my claims when debating a serious poster. And though somebody who expects others to prove them wrong, instead of proving themselves right, cannot be considered serious posters; I quite often do engage in proving negatives.... But also in discussions with serious posters.

 

Alright. Quote where I said the AIDS epidemic is over. Put down the crack pipe Golem. Making stuff up isn’t going to help you. LOL.

Why are you so upset about being called on your errors if I’m not a serious poster?

Forum rules didn’t stop you from linking to articles behind a pay wall. Why let them stop you from calling me whatever you’d like?

Sure dude. I’m the one who has pointed out your errors while you’ve shown nothing I’ve claimed to be in error. And then you call me uninformed. This is too good.

 

Remember what I said: I always back up my claims when debating a serious poster. But I'll make an exception just this one time.

You have provided no reference whatsoever to any claim you have made on the topic that we debated, why should I waste my time providing references to you?

Remember at the start of this discussion? When I provided references for every debatable claim I made? That's to signal that you should do the same. Serious posters always pick up the "hint". But not the rest.

It's nothing personal at all. There are many posters here who don't expect to be taken seriously, and post only because... it's fun.... So, we have fun with them. That's OK too. The difference is that we just don't waste our time working on supplying references, just like they never show any. Because there is an implicit understanding that that's not what they're here for.

 

Ah, yes. But you are taking that out of context.
If you’ll remember I went into detail about how the Hong Kong flu is still infecting and killing people today. I admit that quote is poorly worded but it was not to claim AIDS is over. In fact I never mentioned AIDS, let alone claimed it has ended. It was to demonstrate no epidemic or pandemic has been ended by universal testing. So, all you have done is take something out of context. Please quote where I’ve claimed the AIDS epidemic is ended.

Of course I have. I’ve linked and provided pull quotes from the links. You are like a three year old caught with his hand in the cookie jar swearing you aren’t after a cookie.

You have never provided any evidence for the claim this is the most widespread epidemic. You have never provided evidence that this can only end if everyone is tested. And on and on. The only serious link you provided contradicted your claim directly on South Korean testing. It proved my point.

I’m here to learn. And I’m also here to point out your errors because it’s important to be correct on this subject. If you expect the truth out of politicians you should hold yourself to the same standard. You won’t, so I’m helping you with that. If you can refute any claim I’ve made with facts I’m happy to learn from you as well.

I have given backing for every claim I’ve made. You can not refute a single point. Carry on.

 

No. It was in context and not poorly worded. Maybe, like mine, written without paying much attention. Because, in my case, it wasn't central to my argument. The AIDS and any other epidemic that is not over was an example I used when you doubled down on your claim by arguing that it was "common sense"

Look... I've learned there is only one way to deal with this type of mistakes: admit them, correct them, and carry on. Anything else are just excuses. You might not notice them, but everybody who reads them does. So you fool only yourself.

That's nonsense! A link to the home page of a city site is not a link or a quote or a reference.

Yeah. Like you have never provided any evidence for the claim that all epidemics, pandemics, etc... that the world has ever known, have ended. Only difference is that I retracted my claim as quickly and unequivocally as I could. You didn't. You actually doubled down. As a matter of fact, even at this point you haven't retracted it. You have tried plenty of excuses for making it, but not actually retracted.

And you've had no less than.... I don't know... five or six opportunities to do so... I lost count.

You keep confirming again and again that any hope of having a serious debate with you is a waste of time.

 

Please explain my reference to Hong Kong flu still being active in relation to the quote in question. Clearly my point was not that every epidemic or pandemic has ended. I stated the opposite categorically. In the context of my comments on Hong Kong flu, retracting the quote you provided would be dishonesty on my part. It would amount to me claiming to believe something I do not believe.

Please stop with the fabrications. I linked to the public health department that oversees testing in my area. If you had read my link and the accompanying commentary you would know that. Obviously providing you with information is a waste of time because you either can’t comprehend it or willfully misrepresent it. The only way to get information from them is to call, which I did. The contact information was linked so you had the opportunity to do the same. As I’ve explained to you before, the Internet is not my only source of knowledge. I think it’s sad that it is for you. Much can be learned from personal interactions. I have called many businesses, politician’s offices, and other governmental offices for information or confirmation of information on this site. When I do so I provide contact information so others can verify my assertions based on that source. I’m not responsible for the laziness of members who believe everything because it’s on the Internet and think anything not gleaned from google is false.

I also provided a link to information from the head of testing in my state. You called that invalid because it was appeal to authority. LOL. At the same time, you linked to an article where a journalist made up terms and misrepresented the comments of a health official. Then you link to a source behind a pay wall and say people who don’t provide links aren’t serious. You can’t make this stuff up...

 

While we are on the subject of context....

Here’s a jewel of yours from this thread.

In the context of this blast from the past, how do you want me to interpret the above statement by you?

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/proof-the-most-abused-word-on-this-forum.567837/

Was your quote in this thread poorly worded, or am I supposed to call for you to disavow everything you said in the linked thread?

 

It's a bad habit on this forum which one thread is not going to change.

But that's' not the point of that thread. The point is that expecting "proof" is nonsense. So long as we understand that when we say "Prove it!", it means "show the reasoning and evidence that led you to your conclusion", that's fine. That thread is most definitely not meant to be an excuse not to show evidence of what you say, as you seem to have taken it.

Anyway, there is a thread about that topic. That's the place to comment on it.

If you're going to look all over the Forum, I've made mistakes. I have never denied it, and I have never promised not to make mistakes. What you won't find is me not correcting them as soon as I'm aware of them. You should learn from that, since you haven't retracted yours about "every epidemic, pandemic, etc" (or something to that effect) having "ended".

And, BTW, you could also learn from the other thread you posted about showing your evidence. You won't in this thread, because you don't have one. But a lesson for the future.