I don't get Israel's plan so far...

We have the same thing here in the Muslim controlled congressional districts. They vote for Omar and Tlaib. If the political philosophy of those two were in power, we would have Jewish concentration camps in this country.

 

You claimed that the people of Gaza are going to be radicalized with or without Hamas because they're brutalized by Israel. There are two unproven premises in your post - that people are becoming radicalized because they're brutalized, and that Israel permanently brutalize Palestinians in Gaza. Unproven premises are a logical fallacy. I can't possibly give a coherent reply to a post containing a logical fallacy. Prove your premises if you're interested in a conversation.

 

Are you claiming people don't rebel when they are oppressed? And/or that Palestinians have not been oppressed??? Seriously?

I don't agree with the violence that Hamas does, and condemn it strongly, but I understand what drives them to extremism. You seem to just think that certain cultures/religions/peoples are inherently evil, which I find pretty disgusting. But, to each their own, I guess.

 

Israel has 5+m Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as a permanent problem.

They're not moving into the Sinai. The border with Egypt is closed.

 

Let's stick with the topic at hand. I have noticed the hamas supporters on this forum have a proclivity to make wild claims supported by what hamas told them. While I understand the fog of war, why is it that you (et al) always take their word as gospel? Hamas are by nature, sh*tty humans, just look to their actions of 10/7 if you doubt what I'm saying.

 

You have things a little backwards here. Hamas started this war by entering Israel proper to murder and kidnap civilians. They then returned to Gaza to use those kidnapped as human shields thinking that it would deter the Israel government from a counterattack. They also thought that if they were wrong, the UN would step in and force Israel to back off. That didn't work. But those kidnapped from Israel are not Hamas' only human shields. Hamas, like all terrorist organizations, are cowards. They are also, not too smart.

Let me explain. On October 7th, Hamas launched an unprovoked attack against Israel Proper (Israel not including the Gaza Strip and the West Bank). They killed entire families as they watched TV. They shot up a Music Festival. Some were murdered outright, and some were kidnapped. They even drug some of the corpses back into Gaza. Why? The live hostages would be used as human shields, and the corpses would be left in Gaza to make it look like they were killed by the IDF, and not by Hamas. Israel police began liberating cities and killing or capturing terrorists. The Government recalled all active duty military and called up all the reserves. They launched airstrikes against known Hamas military and leadership sites. The IDF dropped fliers to tell the general Gaza public to move south. They said that they would not attack anyone heading into southern Gaza, and they negotiated with Egypt to open the Rafah border crossing. The idea was to have Palestinian civilians to pass through the crossing into the Egyptian desert where they would be safer. For whatever reason, Egypt has not allowed that to happen. Instead, they are allowing a limited number of trucks loaded with supplies through the crossing. But the civilian population running south and possibly escaping into Israel is not part of Hamas' plan. They need the population to stay in the north to be collateral damage. They are stopping anyone traveling south by arresting them, or in some cases taking their car keys. Never forget, extremists are all about martyrdom. They do not mind dying for their God and taking as many people with them as they can. To the rest of the world, the human shields are seen as collateral damage. To Hamas, they are more martyrs.

Israel has, in fact, shown great restraint. They are doing things the right way. They allowed civilians to leave the target areas. They negotiated with Hamas for the release of the hostages. Hamas has shown that they believe they can hold off the IDF by releasing hostages a few at a time. Israel has taken their time to give negotiations a chance to work, but it hasn't. So, now they have entered the next phase of the operation. That is small incursions into Gaza. I have no knowledge of how the IDF plans to conduct this operation. If it was me, I would have divided the area into sectors. An advanced unit would take and hold a sector. Then another unit would leapfrog that first element to clear and hold the next sector. Keep doing this to drive the Hamas Militants to the sea. Use land, sea and air forces to wipe out all those remaining. Once Northern Gaza is cleared, the IDF can turn its attention to those in Southern Gaza. Bring them supplies and set up camps for those whose home no longer exist. The Israelis should be the ones to oversee the rebuild Gaza. Only then can they ensure that the materials sent for the rebuilding does not end up in the hands of extremists. They are used to rebuild homes and not tunnels. Pipes are used for plumbing and not to make improvised RPGs. Ect..ect...ect. Then force Qatar to extradite the Hamas leadership to the Hauge to stand trial for war crimes.

How will the civilian Palestinians react to all this? First, the civilian population has no doubt that Hamas is responsible for the hardships. Israel should make sure they do not forget that point. Going forward, civilians in the Gaza Strip should be allowed to elect their own leadership but make the results subjective to the Israel Parliament approval. From then on, the Israel Government should make nice with the Palestinians Arabs in the Gaza Strip. Make things so comfortable going forward, that they would reject any funding from Iran to fight a proxy war. That is how you eradicate Hamas.

 

You can bet your life savings on that. Muslims typically support terrorism as a means to an end. They have no room to talk about the loss of life.

 

Israel is in an almost impossible position. The terrorists can do whatever they want and kill innocent people at will, including children and babies. Once they have committed those acts, the Palestinian supporters push for a cease fire with no repercussions for the murders. Why? The Palestinians are the darlings of the left. They are “oppressed people” who are justified when they kill. Israel should just get them have what they want, including the end to the Jewish state.

In the mean time, if Israel does take action, the killers hide behind human shields and have set up their headquarters in and under hospitals. Once more no one can be harmed. Israel is expected to stand aside and take it.

The Biden Administration is playing both sides. They say they support Israel for political reasons because of a large Jewish vote that often votes Democrat. Yet they have they far left flank to appease which wants Israel eliminated. Therefore the real power brokers in the the Biden Administration, which does not include Biden because he is a senile figurehead, gum up Israel’s response whenever they can.

 

Well then atleast be honest about it and say "Hamas claims", and don't present this crap like it's factual. Thanks in advance.

 

Are you claiming people only kill other people when they have good reason to? that would be a wildly absurd claim.

Please then explain what specifically the Muslims did to oppress all of Europe over hundreds of years such that Europeans invaded in a series of Middle East conquests known as the Crusades.

And then if you could explain why other oppressed groups dont radicalize and wage extremist war at every barbaric level. Such as:

German population bombed into submission.

Japan nuked

Native Americans ethnically cleansed with disease, warfare and displacement over 2 entire continents

The list goes on endlessly, and likewise endlessly, many, many oppressed peoples do not turn into suicidal and genocidal barbarians intent on torture and rape.

so the other poster calling you out to back your crap up is quite correct: you treating radicalization as an obvious and automatic result of warfare is simply absurd, but ties in nicely with your overall idealistic and completely unrealistic view of warfare and how to wage it effectively against a foe that even you support being defeated.

 

I am glad we both agree 7000+ rocket to Israel is not acceptable.

So my question is , what is your solution for HAMAS to stop firing rocket to Israel?

 

"Rebel" and "becoming radicalized" are two very different things.

Oh, Palestinians are definitively oppressed, by their own governments. They are ruled by two ruthless dictatorships.

Really, you do understand? Have you read the writings of Sayyid Qutb and Hassan al-Banna? Are you familiar with the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence? Did you read the manuals provided to students in Palestinian schools? How often do you watch Palestinian TV? How about Palestinian media? What do you know about Palestinian culture, arts, religion, daily life, personalities, political life, entertainment, laws, and relations with foreign countries? What do you know about Hamas leaders? What do you know about the Palestinian society, its structure, its customs, its dynamics?

You - anti-Zionists in general - talk about Palestinians as if they are puppets on strings who only react to Israeli actions. The soft bigotry of lower expectations.

 

There are over 30k -40k Palestinians who are Member of Hamas. Ismail Haniyeh , Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority is the head of Hamas. You want Israel to stop the war, turn on water and lights, all the UN assistance to the “Palestinian National Authority” while Hamas/ Palestinian National Authority send 100s of rocket toward Israel?

How long do you think it will take Mossad to capture the mastermind of the Oct 7 attack (Ismail Haniyeh) who is surrounded by “Innocent Palestinian civilian) and 40K Hamas Army?

 

You claim you don’t approve Hamas firing rocket toward Israel, but when you ask Israel to stop bombing, you never say ‘Hamas should stop firing rocket”.

 

Agreed, seriously, Josh seems to think Hamas is teaching its 2.3 million Palestinians how to grow gardens and do yoga, and it’s only attacking Hamas that makes peace loving Palestinians mad and want to be terrorists

 

lol, just as I suspected. You see the propaganda hateful regimes point out, and you lump the entirety of society as aligned with that propaganda. I suppose you do the same with Iran. I also assume that because we in the US have a Democratic Party president, that all Americans automatically align their beliefs with the regime we have in power.
Anger is high with the Palestinians, no doubt, and with good reason. That is going to drive some to extremism. That in no way justifies the extremism. When the extremists carry out their heinous attacks, it also does not justify their civilian population being bombed back to the Stone Age.

I get that you support the slaughter. I do not. If you can see children bein pulled out of the rubble of bombed out buildings, and insist that it is justified, even though such actions guarantee further attacks against Israelis as well, then there is likely nothing I can say that will change your feeling of hatred against Palestinians.
There is no military solution to this, short of genocide, and even that will almost guarantee a regional escalation.

the only solution possible is a diplomatic one, and the more civilians are killed on both sides, the more difficult that becomes, and the closer the US comes to being pulled into a regional war in the Middle East. Again.

 

Yes I do. And I’ll say it now, just so you can hear me specifically. I condemn Hamas completely for their actions and they should stop firing rockets. Clear enough for you?

now, that being said, even if they do not stop firing rockets, that doesn’t justify the slaughter of more civilians, on either side. The only bombs that should be falling are ones that have a JTAC or the Israeli equivalent on the ground, with eyes on the objective, that can verify there are no civilians present. If there are civilians, then it is time for IDF to clear that objective on foot. That is how it is done, and is the only way to spare civilians. The IDF outnumbers Hamas 7 to 1, and is better equipped and trained. 3 to 1 is what is recommended for the attack in US Army field manuals. Israel has more than enough firepower to dismantle Hamas without leveling the city with excessive bombing.

 

The "plan" is to appease the need for revenge among the public. The inevitable commission of war crimes being justified, in their minds, by the Hamas attack. The drumbeat of war can be a powerful thing. Remember the invasion of Iraq?

 

I am sorry , as long as HAMAS fire rocket toward Israel, Israel will continue bombing, continue sending tanks to Gaza.

 

But you recognize it's a tit for tat thing, right? Israel oppresses and kills people in Gaza, Palestinians fire rockets at Israel, rinse and repeat.

 

And again, you assume that everything Palestinians do is just a reaction to Israel's actions. You assume that everything Palestinians think is a reaction to Israel's actions.

How do you explain terrorism not linked to Israel, Jews, or Palestinians, for instance Boko Haram?

 

Getting rid of Hamas in Gaza requires Israel stop using collective punishment. Israel will have to stay in Gaza until Gazans are "invested" financially and emotionally in a peaceful, prosperous society.

What does Israel have in mind for Gaza?

 

As long as Hamas continues bombing, more Palestinians and other muslims around the middle east will become radicalized, and the more widespread the conflict will become.

 

Boko Haram prior to 2009 was relatively peaceful in their pursuit of ridding western influence from Nigeria. They became radicalized after a government clampdown in 2009 killed 800 of their members, and then their leader, Mohammed Yusuf was killed while he was in police custody. After being radicalized they went on to do the unspeakable things that we know them best for, all of which I condemn in the strongest possible way. But in their minds, twisted by hate, what they are doing is the only way to achieve their political ambitions. Much as Israel sees bombing the **** out of Gaza is the only way forward. Much how Hamas sees launching terror attacks is the only way forward.

Do you see a pattern? Perpetual vengeance and military action is NOT the solution in these problems. It never has been. The bloodshed only perpetuates the problem.

 

Yes.

[/Quote]what if a dozen Americans did that to another country, would they be justified to wipe us out?[/QUOTE]
If they did it behalf of The United States government, or The United States government was protecting them? Sure they would. But, that isn't the case. Is it?