I don't get Israel's plan so far...

A provocative comment, but that said we have no examples of liberal democracy prospering in a Muslim majority country. Muslims, it seems, will have to value democracy more than belief in their Imaginary Friend

 

The Palestinians are going to have to pick a side.

 

To

What the Palestinians did is worse than disgusting

 

I'm not disputing that. That doesn't give the green light for slaughtering civilians.

 

The countries killing Jews, Christians, atheists, gay people, non-Muslims, and those critical of religion/government are not being attacked. I am curious why you omitted the savage, baby-killing, raping, attack that lead to this defense.

 

You forgot to mention the reason for the government clampdown in 2009.

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/mappingmilitants/profiles/boko-haram#text_block_11860

A bunch of fanatics not only refused to obey the law, but resorted to widespread violence. They were not oppressed.

How was Bin Laden oppressed when he decided to found his own terrorist organization?

 

So your point is Hamas fire rocket because of Israel’s policy ?

 

Do you have any solution for Hamas to stop firing rocket ?

 

So your solutions while Hamas Fire rocket in Israel from Gaza, Israel should provide peace, prosperity and security to Gaza and over time people of Palestine will change their mind about Israel and Hamas will no longer exist.

 

The incident was the straw that broke the camel's back from their point of view. I think you think that I am saying they are justified. That is not what I have been saying at all. What I have been saying is that military action does nothing but exacerbate the situation, as was the case with Boko Haram and Hamas. Or American patriots during our Revolutionary War for that matter. I'm sure the British were saying about the Americans "not only did they refuse to obey the law, but they are resorting to widespread violence".

Again, not saying anyone is justified in the use of force, but I am pointing out how these things escalate when force is brought into play by either or both sides.

Osama Bin Laden by his own words said "I felt outraged that an injustice had been committed against the people of Afghanistan." We here in the US used that outrage, helping to weaponize the militants that Bin Laden lead. He turned on the US when Saudi Arabia chose to turn to the US for aid after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Bin Laden did not want westerners in a place he deemed holy to Islam, and was angry at the increasing western influence in the region, especially by the USA. I think you know the rest.

Again, not justifying what Al Qaeda did, but what if Biden invited a couple of divisions of the Saudi military to police the streets of American cities? Do you think there would be outrage, and organized resistance? I'm guessing much, if not the majority of America would lose their minds over something like that. Just to try to put it in perspective.

 

I've said repeatedly what I think should be done. Look back at my earlier posts. I'm tired of repeating myself again and again.

 

Agreed. The problem is that palestinians want Israel and Israelis have it and won't abandon it. So there has to be a winner and a loser. Hamas is likely to be the loser.

 

Neither side wants the other to exist so such a "solution" isn't a solution. One has to win and the other lose.

 

Lots of news blaming Israel for the woes brought to Palestine civilians. Funny how none of these people willing to condemn Israel have a plan for a just solution or the survival of Israel in the face of the most vicious attack anyone could imagine- by Hamas- on civilians; on women, children, babies- even babies in the womb. A report from the facility that is sorting bodies and body parts trying to identify victims includes what was first assumed to be one woman, burned to a crisp- but turned out to be a woman clutching a baby. A pregnant woman, her womb ripped open, the child unborn removed and beheaded... with the umbilical cord still intact. These are the kind of people these protests would protect.

The civilians of Palestine don't seem to be very civil. They harbor the terrorists and shield the terrorists. They don't quite qualify as completely innocent bystanders.
If they didn't support hate and destruction for Israel, that wouldn't be true.

Hamas didn't give the Israelis they attacked any warnings, and they were mostly civilians- but Israel gave the Palestinian civilians all kinds of warnings and continues to do so.

I do think Israel should offer a cease-fire, but with terms and conditions:

*Release all hostages immediately.
*Any hostages harmed or killed will result in special reprisals.
*Surrender ALL Hamas fighters at any level of rank to Israel, immediately and without exception.
*Stop all attacks on Israeli citizens or intrusions into Israel of any kind.
In return, Israel ceases all actions and withdraws its forces.

I think Hamas would allow the deaths of all Palestinian civilians first. They see their own people as cannon fodder and shields.

 

And it is also quite clear that neither Hamas or anyone else gives a damn about the Palestinians

 

Wrong all the Palestinians have to do to have peace with Israel is to quit murdering Jews.

 

I don't think the Palestinians have any control over what Hamas does, and can't just "surrender" them, any more than the Israeli people can make Bibi stop his bombing campaign. They are as much held hostage by Hamas as the Israeli prisoners. Some support Hamas, some do not, much as it is on the Israeli side On the eve of the October 7th attacks, only 20% of Palestinians approved of Hamas. But Hamas has cancelled all elections, and the Palestinians were and are stuck.

 

That would seem to be true.
We have thousands of protestors and opinions, but we have few people suggesting any rational solutions. Saying stop is not an answer- because it won't stop the ongoing intentional friction that hate generates.

For people to get along, the two options that make sense are you stay on your side and I stay on mine- or we agree on the basic values that must be upheld if we live together.

Seems neither is acceptable to the terrorists, they want Israel totally destroyed. To me, that leaves but one option, and that's what's happening now.

When a people are held hostage to a government that uses them rather than serving them, they will have to overcome it or get used and destroyed. The price is high, but it is the only choice they seem to have.
Hamas, not Israel, put them in that position.

 

Yea , I read your post. Your solution Israel stop bombing.

 

Ismail Haniyeh is the Prime Minister of Palestine and head of Hamas. Palestinian elected him 15 years ago. But sure, Palestinian has no control over Hamas.

 

And I totally agree with that, but there are more humane ways to go about it. Hamas has to go, there is no doubt, but if you slaughter the people of Palestine in the process, there is going to be so much resentment that something as bad or worse than Hamas will be born. Not to mention a very good chance of the conflict becoming a more widespread regional war that the US gets sucked into.

There are many ways to skin the cat that is Hamas. 8,000 dead civilians, 40% of which are children, is not the way that will secure peace for anyone, especially the Israelis. It will be doing the opposite of making the Israeli civilian population safe as the entire Arab world begins sending radicalized extremists to avenge the dead Palestinians, and perpetuating the violence indefinitely.

The world needs to be smarter about this. Emotions are running high, but giving in to them is just going to make this worse. Hamas must go, absolutely, but not the way they are currently going about it.

 

No it isn't. See post #106.

 

Thanks for pointing the post.

So we both agree – Hamas has to go. It’s just with what military tactics. I read in the forum you served in Iraq, so I know you know more then I do on these issue.

But what I see on TV by military expert like Admiral James G. Stavridis that boots on the ground will kill lot more civilian. But what does James Stavridis know about warfare ? He was some Sailer who happened to be Supreme Allied Commander- Europe.

 

I find myself being very cautious about what some former generals and admirals say on TV. Many of them are scooped up as lobbyists for weapons manufacturers. I'm not saying Stavridis is or isn't. I don't know. But 90% of the time they do not declare their current affiliations when they are interviewed, only that they are a retired general or whatnot. They fail to mention they are heavily invested in the defense industry, and that they make big bucks off of war. Again, I'm not saying this is true of Stavridis. I'm just saying I'm cautious about "experts" they wheel out on MSM. More often than not they have an agenda that involves a **** ton of cash.

But the fighting is going to be dangerous, for sure. Some civilians will be killed, I have no doubt. but 8,000+ within a couple weeks? That is absurd. Over the course of six months of fighting in the Ukraine when Russia invaded last year, there were only 1,000 civilian deaths. If the Israeli fighting continues to kill civilians at its current pace, about 65,000 civilians will die over the course of 6 months. It is just unacceptable.

 

Fair enough. IDF should do everything they can to minimize civilian casualty.