South Africa refers Israel to International Criminal Court

I think the thread was getting a little off track, going into genealogy, but it seems to be coming back into focus, now, with considering the question, of who is a terrorist, versus who is a freedom fighter, or a homeland defender. For myself, attacking civilians, makes one a terrorist but, to be fair, it must be admitted that both sides can make this claim, about the other.

It is funny, that when I first read this thread's title, my idea of the South African government, was of as it had been, namely: the white government, which had been pressured by the international community, to bring about the end of Apartheid. When we think of the former victims of that system, however, now as part of that South African government-- it makes a lot of sense, why they would sympathize with the plight of bombed Gaza civilians, not to mention with Palestinians who have been treated like prison inmates, long before October 7th, or the Palestinians in the West Bank, living under their own form of Israeli Apartheid (according to the U.N.).

Here is an impassioned speech by a South African lawmaker, that really gets to the heart of the matter. The solution, in the speaker's view, requires the same sort of int'l pressure exerted against Israel, as had been used to end Apartheid, in South Africa.

Israel is literally occupying Palestinian territories. So why would you not use the same standard?

(Note: the two situations are obviously not, in every way, identical. I am using, for my question, though, just the basic criteria by which you had defined your own litmus).

If you're willing to listen with an open mind, the video, above, might allow you to broaden your perspective.

Is there something stopping Israel, or any nation on Earth, from referring Hamas to the I.C.C.? I think it is mistaken of you, to judge S. Africa as wrong, just because you think Hamas is worse. It is not S. Africa's responsibility, or that of any nation, to decide which side, in any conflict, is the one most in need of referral; if there is a governmental body that provides cause for its, at least, referral to the Court, then it is a valid thing for any country to refer them-- without being criticized for doing so.

Yet, I think this is but one step, in a larger vision, of S. Africa wanting the world to actually face the situation from which it has long looked away. The reason, being that only a greater involvement of the world community, could ever overcome the inertia, to lead to a resolution of this not only regional, but world problem. Watch the video, for a better understanding of a different viewpoint, beyond your own.

While I think you have a closed mind on this question, I nonetheless included you, in this reply. Above, I point out that:

1) this referral has nothing to do with Hamas, and everything to do with Israeli policies which, it could easily be argued, currently qualify as "terrorist." Do you really doubt that you might feel terrorized, had you been visiting Gaza, and got caught in this?

2) The motivation behind S. Africa's referral, is appreciation for the pathetic conditions, under which Palestinian people are forced to live (not support for the group, Hamas which, if you didn't know, staged a coup in 2007, the year after they were voted into power, to get rid of other political parties and put an end to Palestinian democracy, in Gaza).

As I have encouraged the others in this post, I will tell you that the speech in the video offers you the opportunity to see another point of view on this whole situation, if you care to see any other one.

 

Excellent point.

The reason why South Africa has a UNIQUE viewpoint is because it is the ONLY nation that I am aware of that took ACTION to ELIMINATE the RACIST poison of Apartheid from ALL citizens.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission was the brain child of Bishop Desmond Tutu and was granted the AUTHORITY it needed to PARDON those who CONFESSED their crimes under the Apartheid regime by President Nelson Mandela. It applied EQUALLY to both sides. It was traumatic, cathartic and HEALING. An attempt to REINTRODUCE racism into South Africa was CONDEMNED universally by ALL South Africans.

The core problem of racism is that it UNDERMINES and DIMINISHES the core Respect and Dignity that each of us are ENTITLED to as a RIGHT.

This problem exists because we ENABLE it by DISPARAGING as "terrorist sympathizers" those who OPPOSE the Zionist Apartheid policy towards the Palestinians. Doesn't that make those hurling those allegations racist Apartheid supporters? We are locked in opposition with no way out unless we follow the lead of Tutu and Mandela.

 

Since you love posting long messages, I hope you don't mind reading mine below. It will hopefully help open your mind why this is actually an important component of this conflict.

The Jewish component of the larger pro Israel lobby can be subdivided into the following subgroups:

• the (older) (Ashkenazi) "assimilationists" -- the ones who once wanted to protect their communities in Europe by being in one with the dominant cast. This group played an important role in secular, liberal, social democratic, socialist, leftist as well as Marxist ideologies in Europe and America. In America, they voted for and supported Democrats. In Israel, they used to vote for Labor. They hail from backgrounds which were largely skeptical of the Zionist movement until Hitler and the Holocaust. While more open-minded by nature, they have also traditionally been biased in favor of the theories about the "German"/"European" origin of the Ashkenazi, despite the history and science.
• the "(neo-) (semi) orthodox religious Zionists". They look to religion and scripture to justify their Zionist and ultra Zionist viewpoints. Regardless of the actual history, linguistics, and now genetics, they have also traditionally been the most fervent supporters of the theories trying to link the Ashkenazi to the Levantine/ Babylonian Jews both to support their Biblical claims as well as (for the Sephardic and Mizrahi among them) to forge closer ties to the dominant caste in Israel (the Ashkenazi). This group traditionally supports Likud and other ultra Zionist parties in Israel.
• the "neo-assimilationist", "white supremacist" Ashkenazi and other "converted Jews". A more recent off shoot the old assimilationists, beefed up in their ranks by new arrivals and recruits from eastern Europe, they are arguably the most influential bloc in right-wing Israeli politics, behind them money and support from Russian-Israeli oligarchs. Like their counterparts in the US, they are big Trump fans too. This group will support either the Rhineland Theory of Ashkenazi origins when conversing with their neo-Nazi brothers or the Biblical Jews roots when interacting with "Christians United for Israel" types or both theories simultaneously.

In this bizarre jungle of lies and propaganda directly relevant to the different impulses and pseudo justifications for killing of the Palestinians, the actual truth is closer to this: the most direct descendants of the "Biblical Jews", namely the Palestinians (who converted first to Christianity under Rome, then Islam...), are being slaughtered in the name of those Biblical Jews by a state whose dominant caste has little to do with Biblical Jews, in a larger western (Greco-Roman-Christian-European) war against, ultimately, an Iran who implicitly (and explicitly by virtue of its name) carriers the banner of the folks who the Ashkenaz once hailed from!

There is a story in Iran's epic, the Shahnameh, about how the hero Rostam had to ultimately slay his own son Sohrab. That story to me provides better material for the kind of "prophesy" some seek in the Bible.

 

I actually have read "longer" posts by you, in the past. There is some interesting information in this post-- ironically, it is not long enough, to fully explain the current divisions (or the past, historical connections). Nevertheless, since this thread is on South Africa's referring Israel to the I.C.C., it still seems to be going a little bit off topic, to be getting into such depth over trying to trace genetic heritage-- becoming its own little sub-topic, only for those who have studied this specific question. You might be able to use this, though, in making a given point, that would fit this topic.

 

Why is it that so many love to defend countries, terrorist organization that starts wars, then when the attacked country retaliates against those who started the war, it’s the country in this case that was attacked unexpectedly, by surprise, unprovoked with hostages taken. Now that country is the bad guy. The attacked country didn’t start the war, it was those attacking it injurying, killing civilians first and taking civilian hostages that did start all of this. Somehow, all of this gets lost or those folks were on the side of the attackers all along.


War isn’t pretty, but today most Americans view war was a video game. To provoke a reaction against Israel, Hama hides among the civilians. In hospitals, in schools, uses civilians as shields to protect their fighters, fires their rockets from schoolyards, digs tunnels under hospitals and set up their command post in those tunnels under a hospital. Yet this is accepted with no problem by those now blaming Israel. It’s my view that since Hamas does this, then they're responsible for the injury and death ofPalestine's civilians. Since Hamas started all of this with a surprise and unprovoked attack, killed civilians and taken civilian hostages, they’re responsible.


This may be a simple way of looking at it, but I like keeping things simple. In other words, placing blame on those who started all of this while hold those who started all of this responslble where all the blame should be placed.

 

So we can blame the ZIONISTS because they started imposing Apartheid on the Palestinians therefore all the blame is on the Zionists because they were the only ones responsible for that Apartheid policy.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

No harm in thinking, but you're in the wrong thinking group.

HAMAS is a listed and recognised terrorist group, no matter how hard people think wrong.

 

So was Mandela a listed terrorist but became the darling of the world, when our governments decide to pull their fingers out of eachothers poopas and sanction Israelis as they did the Boers, then the children can live.

 

To save you asking who's on the UK government list of terrorist organisations, here's the link -

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...st-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

 

Iran has a terrorist list too. These lists reflect who is friends with who and who isn't. The wisdom behind the quote: "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" hasn't changed.

 

As my post informed anyone who'd read it: the referral is of Israel-- it has nothing to do with Hamas.

 

Ah, another person whining about the Liberty Incident.

You don't know that an attack on the armed military forces has NEVER been considered "terrorism?

 

The same country that keeps buddying up to ruZZia and refusing to condemn their ongoing atrocities has referred to Israel to the ICC?

Their embarrassment on the world stage is now complete.

 

Your 1st youtube vid starts with a report that 5 ANC politicians got murdered.
Your point was that ANC politicians in SA like to murder.
So your source is a joke and you failed to prove your point.

 

Israeli Jewish civilians are violating the ceasefire and the IDF let them murder and terrorize around in the WB with impunity.
It has gotten so bad that the US is taking visa measures against those and blacklisting them.
So everything you accuse Hamas with, is something Jews and Israel do worse by a hell of a lot.

And you're post is distracting away that your government that you're defending got an active policy to refuse to allow food, clean water and medical aid for millions of people. That still makes your Jewish homeland government a fascist genocidal government.

 

The OP reads "of course we do not condone the actions that were taken by Hamas earlier".

So they oppose both, while you're picking the side that commits a genocide because you do not support Hamas.

 

It wasn't unprovoked. The Jewish state is the violent occupier and colonizer of the state of Palestine. And to colonize is committing a war crime. Hamas is a product of the unprovoked war criminal policies of Israel.

And I do believe SA got it's priorities right, since the Jewish state is far worse than Hamas. The Jewish state got an active genocidal policy going to deprive millions of civilians from foor, water, and medical aid. Because of that, their claim of we do not want to harm civilians and are taking measures, is a joke. The death toll among women and children in 1 month greater than what Russia did to Ukraine in a full year. The amount of reporters murdered by Israel is also unprecedented. The Jewish state is basically carpet bombing entire cities, while nobody is believing that a Hamas terrorist is around every corner and subsequently the Jewish state is just destroying civilian properties on purpose. The Jewish state made the comparison with the Nakba themselves, where they destroyed 100's of towns and cities and deported the civilian population by the 100.000's of people. And this is what them Jews are doing again. They admitted they got a plan to remove all the Palestinians from Gaza and upon today, it still looks like they are on track with that plan.

And while we all agree what Hamas is, we don't seem to agree that people who deliberately deprive millions of people from food, water, and medical aid, while got an active plan to ethnic cleanse them all,... are war criminals. And it seems it's all due to their ethnic background and the fascist idea a Jew is a 1st class citizen. This crap hits a nerve in the core of SA. A SA where the US regarded Mandela to be a terrorist.

 

Still no source of so called scandals of corruption.
Common sense is that people tend to make things up all the time.
And so far you're refusing to source. Safe to say now that you made it up.

 

If Hamas surrendered, the hostilities would come to an end.

 

The hostilities will only end until the Jewish state acknowledges the 2 state solution and acknowledges the state of Palestine as the UN recognizes it. Israel than also needs to resolve their racist law that makes it impossible for Arab civilians who got ethnically cleansed in the late 1940's to get a full reimbursement for their real estate. The leaders of these war crimes also need to be prosecuted at the ICC for their war crimes.

But so far your Jewish homeland keeps on voting to make their fascists and unprovoked war criminal colonization of the state of Palestine worse, every year. And Hamas is only a reaction to that.

 

The hostilities will only end when Hamas is ended. That's why the most humane solution is for Hamas to surrender.

 

Oh ok.

How many political assassinations are needed to meet your definition of loving murder.

 

They acknowledged it when it was first offered in the 1940's.

The Islamic countries then all tried to murder them, and have been doing so ever since.

Apparently everyone except Iran learned their lesson after getting their asses kicked multiple times.

 

The hostilities will only end when netandyahoo resigns That's why the most humane solution is for Israelis to protest his corrupt government.

Hopefully Israel will go the way of south Africa and the indigenous take control.

 

It's more than you can understand sir.